St David's Lutheran
West Columbia
South Carolina
29170
A great place to be judged
The Sunday I attended the pastor preached a sermon on the ten commandments. He went in to great detail that marriage was between a man and woman and that anything else is a sin. I have a gay family member and he was with me. I left feeling hurt and unwelcome. I also looked into getting married at this church and the pastor refused to marry us because we live together. Needless to say this is not the church for you if you live with someone or if you are gay!
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I am so sorry you had to experience that. Too many people, in my opinion, simply use the bible as book of snippets to support their own fears and prejudices.
Mr. Casper,
According to the Detroit Free Press article that pointed me to the churchrater.com website, you are an atheist. The website just says that you are a "non believer". So, I find it curious that you imply that the church/pastor that Agnes complained about "simply use the bible as book of snippets to support their own fears and prejudices." Wow, you want to talk about judging? Please remove the plank out of your own eye before attempting to pluck the sliver out of someone else's.
Also, why are you sorry that Agnes "had to experience that"? As an atheist, I would imagine that you find the whole idea that going to church as a waste of time. Wouldn't you be glad that she had this experience so that she would (finally?) figure out that she had no use for people who preach life-saving gospel, but which is, if I understand the atheist philosophy, just a fable?
Could I ask you to explain your personal motives with this website? I'm serious asking that question. It is difficult for me to fathom why an atheist would waste his time with a website like this.
Why would an atheist be part of a website rating churches... it's a question I have heard from time to time, and it's always a good one.
Simply put, it's because I see this as an opportunity to make a positive difference in the world. I am not an anti-theist, which unfortunately most so-called atheists insist of coming off as (ended a sentence with TWO prepositions!). I see no need to attack Christianity. Rather, I see a need to enforce it.
I believe that if every Christian did what Jesus asked, the world would be a better place: less greed, less violence, less selfishness. So all I do is say things like "Jesus said X; why are you doing Y?"
And I believe that if Christians did what Jesus asked, people like Robert Tilton, James Dobson, Joel Osteen, etc., etc., etc. would quickly be out of their jobs, and I would like to see that happen. (I attended some of these churches and was horrified by the constant demands for money... "my temple should be a house of prayer, but you have made it a den of thieves" indeed.)
It couldn't be easier. Jesus' words on serving others, wealth, and selflessness are quite clear and echo the words of Buddha, et al.
And so... here I am. And outsider holding up an often forgotten mirror. The chance of a lifetime, I believe.
agnes
how would you feel about sending your review in an email to the pastor with a link to church rater and ask him to respond
I wouldn't mind, sending an email. I believe he is set in his ways and beliefs and it really wouldn't matter that much. There are other churches that I have found in the area that are more welcoming and inviting.
Agnes,
Some churches preach the Bible as being 100% Word of God. You will find that these type of churches take the scriptures found in Leviticus 18:22, Romans 1:26-27, and 1 Corinthians 6:9 as rationale for condemning homosexual behavior ("married" or not) and scriptures found in Genesis 2:24, 1 Thessolonians 4:2-5, Galatians 5:19, Ephesians 5:3, Colossians 3:5, and 1 Corinthians 6:16-20 as rationale for condemning sexual relations outside of marriage. Just to touch on two issues that you mentioned in your post.
Without having heard the sermon you heard (I've never been to that church), it's hard to tell whether you got the "fire and brimstone raining from the heavens" sermon, or the "we are all sinners in need of redemption, and the commandments show us our sin and, in turn, show us our need for a savior, and Thank God (literally) that He sent us one" sermon. If the former, I wouldn't necessarily call it hateful, because there is love in pointing out the literal warnings the Bible gives us concerning the real hell that awaits non-believers, although I would suggest that these type of sermons usually send visitors running for the exits and there are much better ways to convey the truth of heaven and hell.
If you heard the latter sermon, I would suggest you ask yourself what you are looking for in a church. If you are looking for a church to affirm your behavior of living with your boyfriend outside of marriage (and good luck finding one that calls itself Christian!) or to affirm your gay relative's behavior, well just know that most churches are black and white on the issue. Some will pick and choose which parts of the Bible they choose to live by, and others won't.
On the church's refusal to marry you because you live together, I will bet that the pastor advised that the current arrangement of living together cease before he would consider marrying you. Would that be accurate?
I do not know to which Lutheran "synod" St. David's belongs, however, Lutherans in general are very big on the theme of God's mercy to sinners (all of us!) and, ***generally*** (ELCA being the one exception I know about), refuse to water down scriptures to be so-called more inclusive (aka "social club").
BTW, I just again noticed the subject you used, "A great place to be judged".
Did the pastor or anyone else confront you or anyone else and proclaim that you/they were going to hell because you did "this or that"? I.e., did anyone personally judge anyone else? When the pastor refused to marry you, did he angrily proclaim you to be a whore? Or did he state the church's position on the subject without figuratively pointing a finger at you while explaining it?
The point is, Christians believe that every person who has ever lived will be judged by God. (Hence the need for a savior, who took our judgment upon Himself.) Despite the well-known "Do not judge, lest you be judged" verse (Matthew 7:1-2, James 4:11, which is normally not accompanied by the context provided by surrounding verses), scriptures also support people judging other people (Romans 13:1, John 7:24). When Christians judge, they need to do so with the best of intentions and with tact, with the goal being that the recipient receives such judgment as helpful instruction. Some do it well, others do not.
Being judged sucks! No one enjoys sitting there and "taking it". However, if I am being judged strictly based on Biblical scripture, and if I am wise, I will accept the judgment as necessary to correct behavior condemned by scripture so that I can grow closer in my relationship with God.
I, for one, am glad God gave us His law in scripture. It is a mirror, so to speak, as His law shows me my sin. Now that I recognize my sin, I recognize that (...lots of stuff here that can be found in a "Christianity 101" study, but in the end...) I need a savior. Biblical scripture is very clear that anyone who believes that they do not need Jesus Christ as their savior to save them from their sins will be condemned to hell. Did I just judge a whole lot of people? Actually, I did not. I only pointed out what God's word says in that regards.
I don't consider living with a man I love a sin. We are two loving caring adults. We are committed to each other, and have been for many years. We give back to our community, and he is the kindest most caring person I have ever met. All I can say, when we are ready to get married it will be at a place where everyone is made to feel welcomed.
If you love him, marry him. You may not consider living with a man a sin, but unfortunately, God takes a very dim view of this permissive lifestyle. He wants his unmarried women to be chaste. Society cannot dictate standards of conduct to God; he sets the standards and his children are to follow them. Our society has just about ripened iniquity. Anything goes as long as we feel it is good for our situation. Remember, we will be held accountable for our actions on Judgment Day; it will be too late then to stand before our Creator and say, "Well, I didn't consider it a sin. Everybody else was doing it."
agnes
you have no obligation to explain yourself - I suggest you pass on this one
Agnes,
I ask this with all sincerity (pun absolutely not intended): Who decides what sin is, and what behavior is sinful?
If it is that each of us decides what is sinful and what is not, then you would be justified in your response. A man could be justified to steal money from a huge corporation so that he could help his neighbor pay for a life-saving operation. A student could be justified to cheat on a history exam so that she could pass the class and earn her degree in social work, and thus be able to help the less fortunate in her career field (which really doesn't rely on history, right?)
God's word makes clear that He decides what sin is. (If you desire scriptural references, I will provide them.)
I am glad that you love the man you are living with, and that you and your mate are "good" people. I am glad that you want to get married. May I ask what specific reasons the pastor cited when he refused to marry you?
I know of a couple who was told the same thing -- that they needed to be apart for a period of time with counciling before the wedding. --- They were insulted --- left and found another minister to marry them --- sorry to say -- within two months they were divorced --- and now have a PART time living together arrangement.