Saddleback
Saddleback has being a church in 21 century America down to a science: very organized (both logistically and thematically), very good at impressing first-time visitors with its professionalism and showmanship, and very good at promoting the message of Saddleback.
But I wasn't entirely sure what that message was... mostly, it was asking folks to believe in Jesus, but didn't they all believe anyway? Or was the ongoing call for belief aimed at the handful of non-believers in the audience, and all the believers were there to show support or get their faith re-charged?
I don't know. I don't believe in God, but if I were to, I think I'd need more than the barrage of "just believe" I experienced at Saddleback.
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I have never been to Saddleback, so I can't speak to the rating, but Saddleback is not an American Baptist Church. They are a Southern Baptist church. I noticed Southern Baptist are not on your list but they are the largest Protestant denomination in American.
Did you Saddleback was a Southern Baptist church but we didnt rate a Southern Baptist Church?
Do you just go to one service and base your whole experience on that? I find going to a church to truly get a rating you would need to go over a long period of time to really get to know people, the message and the speaker. The church I go to took about a year before my wife and I really felt a part of it and being where God wanted us to be to minister and help people.
Been to other churches over my life where we never really felt we were being fed by the word. I encourage you to spend some time and go to some of these churches over a period of time to really know what there stance is on who Jesus is and how to get to know him.
That kind of presupposed that you already believe in Jesus. If you weren't sure, and you were just checking it out, the issue would be- why would I continue to go to this, if it didn't speak to me on the first go. Given that there are thousands of churches out there and countless other religions etc, why waste my time?
God never intended for church services (the gathering together of believers in Jesus) to be an evangelistic time where non-believers are given the gospel. We believers are supposed to have fellowship and Bible study in a church service in order to help fortify us to continue obeying God and sharing the gospel during the week with our non-Christian friends and neighbors. After a non-believer accepts Christ, then they should start attending church services. Also, most evangelical churches (especially the large, "seeker friendly" ones) are just using Entertainment to please masses of people so they can grow bigger. No meat of the Bible given - just "feel good" messages. How sad.
That is the problem with Christians today. They treat church as a social club rather than another place in which to serve God. I don't think everyone who showed up at Paul's prayer meeting way back when, were all Christians and he definitely didn't expect that. Why do we? Why do we assume that the only people who will walk into our churches are those who have already found God? Since when did church become exclusive?
While I have only been able to visit Saddleback four times in my life I have been greatly encouraged by the church. I am impressed with the humility and excellence of what they do. While they may have methods which do not suit my taste, I believe their philosophy and commitment to God and His work in this world is evident and expanding. I love this church.
Overall, it is a good church with plenty to offer, much of which I didn't take advantage of since I was only a visitor (things like small groups and various other ministries). As for friendliness, I was greeted by several "official" greeters from the parking lot all the way into the sanctuary. Beyond that, nobody said hello. But, at a church this size, I doubt anybody knew that I was not a member. Still, it was not a very sociable place...everyone seemed focused on their own agendas. The singing was quality, but a little contrived. With all the professionalism of the place, there seemed to be very little room for the Holy Spirit to do his work in the midst of the service. As for the preaching, I know the speaker wasn't Rick Warren, but I can't for the life of me remember anything about it. I do remember thinking that it was rather bland and a bit watered down. Overall, there was nothing terribly dynamic about my experience.
"As for friendliness, I was greeted by several "official" greeters from the parking lot all the way into the sanctuary. Beyond that, nobody said hello."
Why do you think this happens?
Do you think that it is simply unrealistic of us or unkind of us to expect non paid/rewarded Chritians to actually notice us when we come into their church building?
Maybe they should take down the "Everybody Welcome" Sign until they can live up to the expectations it creates in newcomers?
There are many people at church and I can only guess who is a visitor. I often do guess and ask if they are visiting. Most times I'm right and it leads to good conversations. I know other people do this and I know I have a long way to go to get better and more consistant. There are often 100s of visitors at a service, most sit in the bleachers and if you go Sunday morning chances are you are sitting next to a visitor. So one visitor thinks "why isn't that guy saying hi to me" and the other guy is thinking the same thing. Still others are hoping to sneak in and out without any contact. Not everyone at church is a Christian. Not all Christians are at the same place spiritually. The greeting ministry assures that people have at least some kind of greeting which I think is better than none. For some people it's the only human contact they get in a week. It's ok to expect to be greeted by a non-"greeter", but it not happening is not a good reason to write off God or even to not return to that church.
I think when you're in a seeker-sensitive church you're inevitably going to come across people who are into their personal agenda and not saying "hi." They are unbelievers, we can't expect non believers to act like believers. What Saddleback does is bring people in who are unchurched, and make them comfortable enough to ignite a relationship between them and Christ. It's worked with thousands of people, but of course what works for some doesn't work for another. This goes for any church in the world...not everyone is going to like the same thing.
Saddleback focuses on bringing people to Christ, maturing them through bible study, small group and classes, helping them find a ministry to serve others, teaching them how to reach out to the community and go throughout the world to equip servant leaders, assist the poor, care for the sick and educate the next generation and praying, encouraging and leading them in honoring, obeying, glorifying and worshiping the creator of the universe. With larger size comes larger complications and headaches and much more criticism. It may seem unfriendly, but that's more the nature of the beast. The size is overwhelming and it's not common for people to go around saying hi and hugging everyone in their path. I know some who do that, but they are the exception. It's the same at any church, event, mosque or temple I've ever been to. There are greeters and they do enjoy what they are doing and really want to greet and make the visitors feel welcome. When you have a mob of people coming at you its hard to stop and have a meaningful conversation. Some people don't like to be bothered at all and enjoy being able to slip in and out. I know one atheist visitor and have heard of others who say the thing they like least is the greeter - mainly for hygiene reasons - you can't please everyone. There is a consistant, huge emphasis on small groups which help make this huge place feel small. When I think of church I think of my small group - I had dinner with them last night. They are the ones who ask how I'm doing, really doing and encouraging me to live in obediance, keep priorities straight and stay in prayer. Saddleback is very big and has no plans to stop growing. We won't stop growing or attempting to reach people for Jesus Christ. We don't need or even want to get bigger but we're not closing the doors.
While I have never visited here..they are the model of the Seeker Friendly. Purpose Driven church. My church is a clone of this and when you take a look at what the pastor really believes in, it is quite amazing. Just because someone sells millions of books about how to live a purpose driven life..satan can use this to steer us away from his word and that is exactly what Rick Warren does. Beware of this church or any that follow his lead. Believe me I know from just walking away from our church of 25 years that cloned itself after this! Lighthouse trails has some good info on it. Google it and see for yourself. I rated this with one star because it had to be rated for me to write something.
Thanks for posting, truthstander...
BUT!
Kind of tough to rate a church without having attended it, wouldn't you agree?
"Judge not lest ye be judged."
Here at ChurchRater, the goal is to help people find a church that fits, not condemn churches without even visiting them.
I encourage you to try again, truthstander. Tell us about your personal experiences at your church.
I am a seeker and went to this supposed "Seeker-friendly" church recently, only to be overwhelmed not by it's "message" but it's opulance and size. I don't know why I had hoped to find something different, this church is a Mega Church in every sense of the word, but I was disappointed in the experience. I found the message in the serman to be more self-help driven rather than biblically driven. It almost felt like they were using the bible as a footnote to tell you how they think you should be a better person. For someone wanting to learn the word of god and dig deeper into the Bible's message, I found this church was definitely not for me. Also, this is a very large congregation, so the personal relationship you have at this church is more likely with your friends rather than with the Pastor - which is ok for some, I suppose, but it felt a bit too "pyramid scheme" for my taste.
Tha campus is gorgeous, but it's so big it's overwhelming. I think I'm better suited for a smaller, more community-driven church - but I guess that's just me.
I agree with what you're saying. I went to Saddleback for about a year when I was a 'seeker'. Being a seeker, I enjoyed the anonymity that the size offered and none of the messages could have offended anyone regardless of their faith.
The messages were not so motivating that I felt so inclined that I had to make a choice, yet were pleasant enough that they gave me no reason not to continue coming back if I had the time. Basically, I felt content with remaining a seeker.
All in all, this would be a great church for people who are afraid of church... but after a few weeks/ months of "not being offended" a true seeker should graduate onto a more Word-Driven Church with a more meaningful Purpose