Lakewood
3700 Southwest Freeway
Houston
Texas
77027
Senior Pastor:
Joel Osteen
Denomination:
Non-Denominational
Give to Joel What Is Caesar's
I am an open-minded atheist. Which means that I accept that people have different beliefs than I do, and that beliefs are just that: something people believe.
They can't be proven in any kind of empirical sense. Some people believe Zeus or another god made the world. Some people believe it was random.
As far as I'm concerned, there is no "right" belief system and no "wrong" belief system. Because right and wrong are subjective terms, which means that each person--in the final analysis--decides what's right and what's wrong.
Sure, there are some belief systems that can be proven to have caused pain and suffering, which may make them wrong in the eyes of the majority. (Case in point: Nazism.)
In the case of Lakewood, the belief system is Christian. So I look at this church--and all churches--with that filter: are they supporting the tenets of Christianity clearly illuminated by the words of Jesus Christ in the Bible...?
As far as I could tell during my visit, the answer is somewhere between "sorta" and "no."
Based on my limited knowledge of the things Jesus called people to do--love one another...love your enemies...give to Caesar what is Caesar's (talking about money), and to God what is God's--Lakewood is not really following the teachings of Jesus, hence the rating of 1.
It's not about the show for me. (Though the show was impressive: fog machines, camera cranes, dancing chorus of 100, lights, camera, ACTION!) It's about whether or not these people who profess these beliefs are practicing them, or simply profiting from them.
And profit was the thing at Lakewood, as far as I could tell. The profit was everywhere: in the facility, the bookstore, the products, the glitz, the staging, the giant screens, the waterfalls.
Joel Osteen is a good public speaker, but so what...? He rarely mentions the words of Jesus and instead serves up platitudes about not being moody, and being positive. Did he train by reading the bible or in the chorus line of "Up with People?"
I never once felt as if I were in a house of God-loving people. I felt as if I were at a pep rally, but one without a point, without a call to action. Every pep rally, after all, ends with a rousing cheer: "Now let's go beat !"
But at Lakewood, the only action we were really called to take was to tithe, which (it was made clear by Victoria) is 10% of our salaries. Other than that, it was "you're a victor... you're a champion..." Things that--no matter how hard I tried--I just couldn't imagine Jesus saying or supporting.
It's not because I believe Jesus was the son of God: I don't. But because Jesus did say and do some things--all recorded in the bible--that were not being said or emulated at Lakewood.
Love your enemies...? At Lakewood, we heard how we were going to defeat our enemies, not love them.
Give to Caesar what is Caesar's...? At Lakewood we were asked to give to Joel what is Caesar's.
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Very unfair rating. I was at Lakewood in Janurary of 2007 and found the Church to be wonderful! No pressure to give but a lot of positive statements of faith. Joel and his family were wonderful to my wife and I.
Pastor of the Midwest
Sounds like you are close friends with Joel.
Do you think that colors your view at all?
Why dont you fill out a rating for Lakewood and post it - so that others dont have just one persons view
Is it just me or shouldn't Joel Osteen take it as as compliment that an atheist went to his church and didn't recognize it as conforming to the atheist's understanding of Christianity? An atheists understanding of Christianity is, after all, by definition not very compelling.
Greg Marquez
goyomarquez@earthlink.net
www.ivchristiancenter.com
Hi Greg,
I would hope Joel would take it as anything but a compliment. After all, his stated goal is to reach people just like me—the unchurched.
That said, I believe I have a fairly good understanding of what Christianity is supposed to be: it's all right there in the Bible, in the words and deeds of Jesus Christ.
And I welcome Joel's explanation—or any megachurch pastor's explanation—of how their enormous facilities, TV studios, and profit-generating enterprises reflect in any way the words and deeds of Jesus.
I understand why people like Joel Osteen: he makes them feel good. But I do not understand what his feel-good messages—"you're a victor…a champion…etc."—his COMPAQ center, his light shows, and his dancers have to do with Christianity.
Call it something else, because that street preacher from 1st century Palestine—in whose shadow Osteen, et al, supposedly stand—would not recognize churches like Lakewood as houses of God…
"My temple should be a house of prayer, but you have made it a den of thieves…" Jesus in Matthew, Mark, Luke, AND John.
I do not believe in God, but I can read the book of those who say they do. And the rules and standards Christians must abide by are quite clear.
Matt Casper
Bravo, Matt! Well said!
This is an amazingly honest thread. I've enjoyed it so much that it inspired my most recent blog post: http://tinyurl.com/yzwnp5s Thank you Matt for speaking your mind eloquently and without regret!
Matt -
As a life-long Christ follower (some days better than others) I have found your reviews of the Church intriguing, challenging, and saddening. Admittedly, there are churches who get caught up in "me-ism" instead of theism and yet the central truths of the message of Jesus manage to take root. I agree with you that there are times when we, as Christ followers, fall WAY short of what Jesus taught. However, I have to trust that Jesus, through the power of his Spirit, isn't limited to just our human attempts to convey His story to others.
Matt & Jim,
I've watched Joel on TV. In a lot of ways I agree that it is very pep-rally-ish.
I hear 'Zig Zigler, Brian Tracy, Tom Hopkins, etc.' It's like sales training for the Christian.
I do believe that there is a place for Joel's message in Christianity as a whole. A call to 'renew the saints'. You have to go old-testament to see that spiritual teachers can & should be compensated, Jesus didn't talk about that much. He made his living as a carpenter as I'm sure you're aware.
As far as Christianity being based on the teachings of Christ.. I'm a little disturbed myself by the fact that most of Christianity is based more on the teaching of Paul than that of Jesus.. (who I see, that even as a so-called atheist you recognize as the 'Christ').
I'd encourage everyone to visit San Antonio. San Antonio has a few so-called 'mega-churches'. Driving to San Antonio is a sort-of spiritual adventure anyhow. While most mile-markers traveling between cities show the distance to city hall, the mile-markers to San Antonio show the distance to the Cathedral downtown (which has been there since before the battle of the Alamo).
You have Pastor Hagee, who's determined to show everyone that we are basically in the midst of Armageddon. A few miles away you have Max Lucado, who hasn't taken a paycheck from his church in a decade. Max has made his money from writing books, but his Church (Oak Hills) has a commitment to intercede for 10% of the city. A huge task for this very large city.
I love it. Even an atheist understands the teachings of Jesus better than the Christians who claim to be his followers. Casper is seeking relationship and all we give him is religion. It died at the cross and until we get past that and learn how to love, men and women like Casper will continue to not believe and if you ask me rightfully so.
Interesting. Matt gives his perceptions of a church (as a non believer) and someone, I would assume a Baptist, slams him for it. Kill the messenger, don't change "the message".
I reckon I'm also "lost". Unlike Matt, I believe in God and Christ, I just don't believe in church. It has been pointed out to me repeatedly that I'm certainly not "good enough" to associate with the fine christians church members. That's ok by me, if what they are living is the way to heaven I will gladly go to hell. If THEY are what God wants, I certainly don't want God.
Good dialogue. I agree it's an interest point - "Christianity" vs "Paulism". As a non-christian, it's a pair of belief systems I've often tried to understand and differentiate, but I have the sense that most Christians, both fundamentalist and non-fundamentalist, believe that Paul simply clarifies and distills Yeshua-ha-Nozri's teaching to help the process of develop a church, which Jesus himself said very little about.
An earlier commenter noted that the Old Testament emphasizes that preachers should be compesated. Notwithstanding the fact that the Old Testament contains many things Christians would in fact reject (e.g., incest), surely this is a matter of degree? After all, it is easier for a camel to enter the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven - and aren't alot of these dudes grossing many times what the average person in the USA makes? Finally, didn't Jesus turn the tables on the tax collectors in the Temple because he essentially disliked the way in which money-making (albeit run by high level Church hierarchy) was blatantly occuring in the Temple?
Just my two cents as a thoughtful agnostic.
Mea
I think when you get into the "Christianity vs. Paul" agrument, now you are talking about the cannonization the bible which is a whole other can of worms.
As far as Jesus turning over the Tax collectors table in the temple, he actaully hung out with the tax collectors and the so-called "sinners". He like them and ate with them and went to their homes. It wasn't their tables he turned over, it was the "money changers" who were put in the temple to make it more complicated for people to worship God. "Your best isn't good enough for God, but I do happen to have some sacrifices right here that I know personally are acceptable to the Almighty."
I have heard a lot of talk on this site from comments from different people about giving, offerings, and the New Testament. But nobody has mentioned that Jesus did tell someone that they ought to tithe, but he had an interesting string attached. He told some religious leaders that they ought to tithe but that they had negelected something more important; justice, mercy and faith.
Anyway, just some observations.
Thought #1: 40,000 People attend Lakewood Church each weekend. 7 million Americans watch Joel Osteen on TV each week. Over 4 million people bought his book in the U.S. alone. And now, 1 athiest doesn't like him. Stop the presses.. we have a breaking story!!!
Thought #2: Just think... an athiest as an expert on churches. If enough Christians buy your book and you become rich then you will have really pulled one over on us, huh? There seems to be one small problem. I just checked Amazon and your book is not among the top 100 sellers even in the religious genre.
Wow! Our take on Lakewood has spawned some interesting comments! I don't know enough about Paul vs. Jesus, so I won't comment on that.
But, Don, have you read our book? The questions I have about Lakewood are strictly about the money and spectacle, which seem to have little to no relation to the teachings of Jesus Christ.
As a regular attender to Lakewood, how do you feel about the money aspect of it? Do you think making those kinds of profits is in tune with the teachings of Jesus, the person who you and Joel follow and after whom your religion is named?
And why does the fact that Joel Osteen has 40K people at his church, 70 million people watching, etc., mean anything at all? Is being popular a measure of being effective?
After all, Adolf Hitler also had the attention of millions of people, and you couldn't call his life/message a success...
I am in no way comparing Joel to Hitler: just using Hitler as an example of how the number of followers/listeners you have is not what's important: it's what you do with their attention.
Answer when you get the chance! I look forward to your feedback...
Thanks,
Matt
Matt: I read a small portion of the book and now cannot remember whether you were the atheist or the disenchanted charismatic. I apologize. In any event, I'll start with the easy stuff. First: You are right, Hitler did have the attention of millions. And, history has shown us that whenever anyone garners the attention of millions, he (or she) will change the world. Like it or not, Joel Osteen is changing the face of Christianity and the world.
Secondly, Matt, you described the 'praise and worship' portion of the Lakewood service as a "spectacle." You used the word in a cynical attempt to illustrate the service as fluff over substance. I am not convinced that an atheist can really understand the spiritual aspects of such a truly spectacular event as Lakewood's praise and worship. It is designed with Psalm 22:3 in mind ("God inhabits the praises of His people.) While such an energetic praise and worship may not appeal to you, you did an injustice to your readers when you did not at least appreciate it for what it was. For those who believe that praise and worship through song is an integral part of the total worship process, there is no better place than Lakewood Church. This is what you should have said.
Thirdly, you seem to indicate that bigness (popularity, etc.) are an anathema to the teachings of Christ. Nothing could be further from the truth. I'll provide a few examples. First off, it was Jesus Christ himself who had the first megachurch. On more than one occasion he preached to thousands at a time. As a matter of fact, he fed them as well. (I can only imagine how you would have derided Lakewood had we had a pot luck dinner following the service.) Back to the point, Jesus was so popular among the people that he was ultimately killed for it. Jesus performed thousands of miracles in front of thousands of people. He raised Lazarus from the dead for everyone to see. He walked on water for the sake of his disciples. And, on the day of Penticost thousands were converted during a single event. Jesus did things in a big way, Matt. That is how you change the world.
Finally, I'll address your comments on the money (or as you strategically label it -- the profits). I have found that those who don't believe will often attempt to undermine the credibility of our faith by attacking our institutions (ie. churches) as money hungry and profit-driven. I notice that you did not mention that during the 90 minute service at Lakewood, Victoria only spent 2 minutes taking the offering. I also notice that you did not mention that during your previsit research which included watching Joel on TV that he never once asked for money from the TV audience. How can you possibly engage in a credible conversation about money and leave that out?
The truth is this Matt, before you ever walked in the door your mind was made up about Joel Osteen and Lakewood Church. You tailored your observations to fit your predisposed opinion.
Matt, while I think your experiment was a novel one, it just doesn't work. An atheist by definition denies the spirituality of mankind and therefore has no framework or reference from which to judge the very institutions that promote and nurture this deminsion of our existence. The superficial nature with which Lakewood was analyzed makes the point crystal clear.
Thanks for writing again, Don. As happens when people dialog, your thoughtful response has led me to respond, too. I hope you'll find my response to be thoughtful, too.
You said "Joel Osteen is changing the face of Christianity and the world." I am curious as to what you mean by that. What changes would I see?
I like to think I didn't make up my mind before I went in, but I am very, very doubtful of people who become millionaires in Jesus' name.
The few times Jesus mentioned money, it was disparaging, wasn't it…? "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's… it will be easier for camel to fit through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven…"
So when I saw the incredible amount of wealth and money behind Lakewood, I was shocked. I remain so.
Finally, you tell me that as I am an atheist, I have "no framework or reference from which to judge the very institutions that promote and nurture this dimension of our existence [spirituality]."
Actually, I do. And anyone does. You are Christians. The tenets of the Christian faith are clearly spelled out by its namesake, Jesus Christ, in the Bible. All I'm doing it looking at what he said, then looking at what you do (or what Joel Osteen does) and pointing out what appear to me to be inconsistencies…
I'm sorry you thought our take on Lakewood was superficial. It should sadden you to know that I thought Lakewood's idea of what it really takes to be a follower of Jesus was superficial, too.
Jesus asked for sacrifice, and to love your enemies, and to do unto others… Lakewood appears to want you just to wave your hands in the air, say a few magic words, and kick in some cash…
Matt
Matt and Don,
It's been a pleasure to follow your sincere dialog.
The thing which most bugs me about Osteen's sermon (okay, yes, the one that I watched), was the feeling that no one at Lakewood was willing to talk about the really dark, dirty, horrible, evil realities in the world--that of the 150,000 of us who die worldwide every day, some unbearably large number of those die young, die in pain, die never having experienced good by any definition of the word--that is, die mostly alone, in darnkness, in defeat, murdered, etc. There just doesn't seem to be room for these realities inside Lakewoods theology. But in refusing to look at and sit with the tension of these realities, Joel and Lakewood are, it seems to me, robbing the gospel of any real power it might have. That is to say, people who like to jump from good friday to easter sunday are never going to appreciate the truly astonishing nature of resurrectiong, because they think they can skip the death of god which in reality is the saturday we often find ourselves in.
Thank you for a forum for such an open and honest conversation.
I just wanted to add that not all christians hold the same view. I have many of the same questions that you do. I am still waiting to hear anything but a motivational talk from Joel. I will say that we don't know or atleast I don't know what he's doing for the community. I'll end by saying that Jesus had anything but a Mega church. In Matthew chapter 5 when the crowd is getting too big Jesus climbs the mountain to thin it out. Add to that the fact that Jesus was always in the community changing lives (healing, feeding..) not often was he found in the temple... preaching???
Erickyp, Karl, Jerry, Dalton, Bubba, MM, Benjamin, et al: I have heard that many in the Christian community have a problem with Joel Osteen's "soft-peddling" of the gospel.
Would say that's the case for you...? Or, if you don't believe and have taken in an Osteen sermon or two, do you find yourself waiting for the other shoe to drop...? I.e., "ok, I get it: I'm a champion... so when's this guy gonna get back to the fire and brimstone?"
All I think I do is ask myself, "Is this what Christianity is all about...?"
I know that there are many atheists who say they like Joel Osteen, but I wonder why...? Is it for the same reasons many more Robertson/Falwell-esque Christians dislike him (the soft-peddling)?
For me, liking someone who says they're a Christian comes down to a very, very simple thing: are they emulating Christ? And to me that means, are they putting the needs of others before their own needs?
I think if Joel was doing that, we wouldn't know his name because he wouldn't spend a dime on TV shows, light shows, and the other trappings of celebrity.
Which leads me to a more provocative question: would there be a Lakewood church without Joel? Probably not. And if that's the case, then aren't the attendees worshipping Joel as much as anything, and thereby breaking the first commandment?
Just a thought from someone who doesn't believe, but is familiar with the believer's handbook...
What's amazing to me Matt - is that you are doing a fantastic job of "introspective evangelizing" for many Christians who happen upon these comments and hear your take on Christianity and the "church".
What an incredible paradox...
/Are you sure you aren't from Tarsus?
Hi Strong...
Thanks for your comments. I think you have hit upon the value--which some people seem to doubt--of having a non-believer attend church.
Communicating is the stuff of life, and knowing if X is communicating well is not something X can ever determine (X being a church, a business, a person, whatever) on its own.
Switching gears: What's "Tarsus?"
Ooh, ooh, pick me, I know this one!
(Sorry, I have to remember I'm not in Bible study class anymore ;-))
It's a reference to Paul the Apostle - he was from Tarsus.
What's an "apostle?"
:)
"What's an 'apostle'?"
Isn't that the husband of an epistle?
(sorry, I know--so bad)
Matt, on what basis do you reject any notion of the divine; and, do you also reject any notion of spirituality, as opposed to or contrasted with religiosity?
My message is simple,
The natural man understandeth that not of the spirit. Even for people who are saved and feeled with the spirit the subject of money is one of hard teachings.I like Pastor Joel's message of hope for everyone. God is not an inspector of man. You can not read the bible like a novel.The atheist needs to ask God to show himself with an open mind to recieve.This is my first reading of the church ratings I'm looking forward to reading them all.Good stuff.
Rev Rad
Joel Osteen is very entertaining, in a mindless sort of way. If you don't really care much about what the Bible actually teaches, you will probably not be disturbed by his teachings, especially if you are a devotee of pop psych and multi-level marketing training. I really wish I didn't agree with Matt so much about this particular ministry. It is a tremendous business success, however, and would be profitable for those interested in success motivation to study. And of course, you'll never have to be disturbed by thoughts of repentance, sin, judgment, hell, chastening from God, etc. Everything can be reduced to a mental attitude process. In its own way, its the perfect little postmodern charade.
Joel Osteen's ministry has far more to do with modernism than it does with postmodernism. Just thought I would throw that out there.
Hey Everyone and Matt,
I love all this conversation...it's all very challenging for me right now. First things first, I’m a Christ follower, but I'm having my doubts about my association with the Christian religion right about now. Matt your book is more than intriguing to me because I'm a newer Christ follower (5 years) who works in a mega-church in the Midwest. I understand your points completely about the 'lights, camera, action' approach to a church service. I'm the guy in my church who's in charge of making sure that all those things work each Sunday. In all honesty, I pushed to have a lot of those things installed in our building. I love production...what else can I say? I honestly believed when I was pushing the budget to the elders so that these things would do something 'good' for the church and it’s ability to reach non-believers. I thought I was going to take all those media elements and create an environment that would create a 'this isn't church' feeling to non-Christians leading them to give the message a chance. The irony is that I created a great 'performance' that the traditional church people hated at first. I thought I was on the right track...they hated it, so the non-believer might give us a chance now! The reality is that the traditional members came around pretty quickly and (along with the rest of the church) almost 'demanded' a new and more innovative program each week...with more 'special' elements to keep them entertained. My goal was to entertain the average atheist, agnostic, and seeker enough that they would hear a message that I believe with all of my heart...now, I spend my days 'entertaining the saints'...a group of Christians that come each week to be entertained, not to become equipped with the message that Christ came here with...a message of loving and building a relationship all the 'average' people out there.
I look forward to reading your book. My executive pastor is doing a book study on your book with about half our staff. I can't wait to hear what type of conversation is brought up. I'm just finished with the introduction and came to check out the site...I'm a little timid to see what you said about Mosaic...I love that church...I hope it made sense to you because it seems to make sense to me:-)
Thanks for being so willing to put all of your thoughts about there like this. I think a lot of us 'Christians' could learn a lot from you.
thanks,
Korry
Korry, thanks for sharing your experience of what happened when you sought to create a service that would attract outsiders.
I reposted your comment on the ChurchRater blog here:
http://www.churchrater.com/blog/2007/06/01/entertaining-the-saints/
Matt,
You expressed that this church did not seem to show the love that Jesus expresses and I was just wondering how a church might express its love to an outsider such during the two hours that they have you there.
I often hear complaints about church, but I seldom hear solutions.
The reason that I ask this is that I have been an outsider of the church for many years, although I am a committed Christian. However, I was not raised in the church and I am now working in a direct ministry that allows me to express my faith outside of a church. In my experience, I have found that I am uncomfortable with the experience of "doing church" in the first place.
I find myself sometimes suspicious when church-goers are "too friendly" and annoyed when they aren't friendly enough.
For this reason, I find myself questioning the whole methodology of church as we know it today and I often wish that church could be more of a round table discussion of ideas and thoughts rather than lining up to get in, sitting in nice, straight little rows, and listening to one person tell us how we should believe.
This also means that I am not totally objective because I realize that I bring my own prejudices, thoughts, and values into the church experience and always feel a little disappointed by it.
Is it the church or is it me? I often wonder...
I am a little late to this but I have to comment on this persons position about Matts opinon of Lakewood
"I am not convinced that an atheist can really understand the spiritual aspects of such a truly spectacular event as Lakewood's praise and worship. It is designed with Psalm 22:3 in mind ("God inhabits the praises of His people.)"
I cant believe that a bible believing Christian could actually say this. Beyond lacking curiousity and basic humility you exhibit such biblical illiteracy I find it hard to respond. Using Ps 22:3 to prove your point about the spectacular worship at Lakewood reveals the pentecosal latter rain infuence you have been subjected to. God s presence can come in quiet and spectacular ways but to assume that this passage justifies Lakewood excess reveals your bias and lack of theological reflection.
As far as my colleage Matt not being qualified to have a valuable opinion of your church I leave you with the words Jesus spoke to a group of self righteous Pharisees about a Roman Terrorist (aka Centurion) "I have never seen such great faith in ALL of Israel"
I hear that often... "well, you wouldn't understand: you're an atheist." And, yeah, I get that kind of... but that doesn't mean I'm not interested in understanding.
And if it (belief, one's church) is so spectacular, then why wouldn't you want it to be easily understood? If it's the mystery that makes it so wonderful, I get that, too.
But if that IS it--the mystery--then, please, stop treating it (belief, one's church) as anything beyond the realm of the mysterious and the magical.
HOWEVER: I am getting off-point. If something magical and spectacular happened at Joel Osteen's church, I didn't see it. I saw the same thing I'd see at a Tony Robbins seminar or a taping of American Idol.
I did not go to church to find out if there was a God. I went to find out what was going on. And most of what I saw had to do with building a church, building a life here on Earth, making money (sometimes) and helping others (sometimes).
I look forward to visiting more churches, dialoging with more people, and being a part of it all, whether I understand it or not.
Thanks...
Has anyone else noticed that Joel's underlying thrust (ie. live your "best life now") is plagiarized straight from Oprah? Or did Oprah get it from Joel?
Unfortunately, instead of seeking to become one (John 17:20) through service exemplifying the fruits of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-24) emptying ourselves becoming as nothing (Phillipians 2:1-11) we think we're something spanky.
I heard these guys on Paul Edwards show the other day and they see the same things I do. I think the only difference is that our friend Casper believes that people are inherantly good (against good judgment and historical grounding), himself included, while a good Christian knows, "all have fallen short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23) and rightly deserve His judgment (Romans 6:23).
Capser, you said, and rightly so, that the Christian life is a heavy burden to bare. But, Jesus burden friend. Is truly, a burden not so heavy. Righteousness gives true freedom from affliction, being blessed of God and experiencing His wonderful goodness. (Romans 12:2)
While the burden seems heavy, truly a burden so great will be removed that, this burden, His burden, becomes a great gift leading to salvation.
In Jesus,
Beau
Matt,
You're preaching a good message. Jesus is the perfect example of how a Christian should live. I'm referring to possessing the attributes of God. What I see in the churches today is not lining up with the Word of God. That's why Jesus talked about being in the Kingdom of God. The kingdom is spiritual. The Pharisees precided inside of the buidling. Today, we refer to it as religion. There are millions of people going to church practicing religion. But, they lack a personal relationship with God through his son, Jesus Christ.
For an "atheist" to rate a Christian Church, when it is impossible for him to understand things of the spirit.
Just responding to Mr. Gluck's comment here:
I don't claim to "understand things of the spirit." But, as I mentioned, I can understand things written in the Christian bible. And many of those things seem to contradict what happened during my visit to Lakewood.
I can also find things in that bible that contradict what you said (e.g., "judge not lest ye be judged..." "let he who is without sin cast the first stone...").
Again, not claiming to understand things of the spirit; just things written down about what Jesus did and how he asked people to behave.
Things that appear to be ignored by Joel Osteen and yourself.
I've attended Lakewood Church back when Joel's father had it. I thoroughly enjoyed and hold it as a very fond memory.
What's interesting, Joel can do pretty much whatever he wants to do with money, buildings, message, music, etc., within the boundaries of the law. This is America.
Others can sit here and criticize, judge, analyze, condemn, whatever you do. I see it like a gnat on an elephant's butt. Doesn't have much effect on anything.
But this is a great country. Joel gets his significance by doing things in a huge way while affecting tens of thousands of lives. And you get to sit there on your couch and write a bunch of stuff that has no effect on anything other than the few people who come to this site. And I seriously doubt many of those are going to alter their view much.
But, its still America. We can pursue dreams or sit and bitch and moan. Hmmm.........
I understand your reaction: when you like someone the way many people like Joel Osteen, hearing that person criticized is not easy.
But all we ever asked is how does what Joel Osteen does in his church business support the words and deeds of Jesus Christ, who Joel leverages to make millions of dollars.
Do you have an answer for me? Because I'd really like to hear how what Joel does is in any way like what Jesus would do.
Using Jesus' name to get rich is, in my opinion, the most hypocritical thing a person can do.
Making you and other people who tune in to his TV show feel good should be a by-product of how a preacher spends his time. His REAL product should be serving the poor and downtrodden, just like Jesus would have done.
Can you tell me what Joel does that makes the world a better place? And just getting people to say they believe is--in my opinion and in the opinions of many more people every day--not what does it...
I look forward to hearing back from you!
Matt Casper
Matt, I've been around this all of my life. I've seen guys who play the 'give me your money and God will do XYZ for you'. I've also seen the out and out scams. I've been to TD Jakes' church dozens of times. I've never heard that. I listened to Joel hundreds of times. He doesn't say that.
The truth is, Joel might be the Al Capone that you say. TD might be the biggest crook in history. I don't know his heart anymore than I know yours or that you know mine. But you don't know that. Neither do I. And I've been up close and personal with these people for years.
What you haven't seen by visiting their churches 'one time' is what they really do for those who are in need. I guarantee you that they are doing far more than you and I. I guarantee that they are doing more to feed the hungry, clothe the naked than you and me.
You can't just go to a couple of these services and presume that you know what these people are all about. That would make you God. Matt, you can't be God. You don't even believe in God.
That would be like showing up at a college science class one time and presuming you know it all. Come on man! You're smarter than that.
One last thing. I could care less who criticizes Joel or TD Jakes. Again, I've been around it all of my life. You aren't the first one to levy such an attack on someone who is in ministry, famous and controls a lot of money. These kinds of criticisms are old news. I've heard all that stuff before way more than I recount. If you only really knew. There is a lot of crap that goes on in the name of the street preacher from Palestine. I've seen it up close and personal. The good, the bad and the very, very ugly. In my opinion, you have your sites pointed in the wrong direction, but I'm not sure what the purpose of this forum is anyway.
Kewl, thanks for your comments.
It's reasonable, isn't it, to infer what's important to a church based on what is highlighted in their service? If feeding the hungry was a priority at Joel Osteen's church, why was that not obvious to Matt? Why were people who feed the hungry not being interviewed in the service or featured in the bulletin? Why not let them preach the sermon?
I think it's because people wouldn't come if Joel Osteen wasn't preaching. Which means they don't come to church to hear about feeding the hungry but to hear Joel.
I don't doubt that some people in the church might be involved in feeding the hungry. But not because the church makes a big deal about it - because if the church did, that would have been obvious to Matt even from going to one service.
You said you weren't sure of the purpose of this forum. It's to balance things out a bit better - in church one person (like Joel Osteen) does pretty much all the talking and everyone else listens. Here, the people who only get to listen in church can say what they think. We believe the street preacher from Palestine likes ordinary people to have a voice.
I just erased a very lengthy reply. You wouldn't believe me if I did tell you what I know about these issues. Second, these men need no defense. I have no business being here and interrupting whatever it is you all do here. I apologize for upsetting anyone and for interfering.
Take care.
Hey there...
I wasn't upset by anything you said, nor do I think you're interfering.
You seem to share our passion if not our positions. What we "do here" is talk. Talk about what the church means, what its leaders represent, how that--in our opinions--reflects or doesn't reflect things Jesus said or did. That's all.
Jim & I wrote a book (Jim & Casper Go to Church) and this site is an outgrowth of the book.
I think I speak for everyone here when I say we'd be happy to hear what you have to say. Know that we try to dialog and not debate, which usually means asking questions rather than stating positions.
The question I asked about Joel and TD is simple: is how they do church--dancing chorus lines, tithes waved in the air, etc.--how Jesus told them to do it? I think it's a fair, unbiased question, too, and if you can help answer it, I'd be much obliged.
We don't mean to judge the people themselves. We just have honest questions about the things they say in the name of Jesus.
So stick around, share what you know, help us maybe find an answer or two...
Thanks,
Matt
O.k. Matt. That's fair. I can respect that.
You know, when you get right down to it, Jesus didn't give specific instructions on 'how to do church' (at least as we know it today). He said very simple things like 'love one another, love God and love yourself'.
The thing that I appreciate about some of those with a more positive message is, they are not teaching hate, judgment, prejudice and the like.
Joel has been criticized by the evangelical Christians as being far too liberal when it comes to the issues of 'dividing sheep and goats'. The Bible teaches that God is the one who does that, not us.
Matt, I found a group on the Internet who called themselves, 'Atheists for Jesus'. Without believing in his divinity, they loved, appreciated and followed his teachings. (Ghandi, a Hindu, lived his life by Jesus' sermon on the Mount.) I understand their position and their viewpoint.
Many evangelicals that I talked to just gave a blank stare when I shared with them about Atheists for Jesus.
In my view, here's the biggest problem with evangelical religion. For the most part, they are hate mongers.
Like I've said, I've been around them all of my life. I've spoken with the likes of Oral Roberts, Joel Osteen, John Osteen, John Hagee, Benny Hinn, Paul and Jan Crouch and several others, face to face. I know one former, big-time tele-evangelist very, very well. I still talk to him 2-3 times a week.
Some of those folks are what I consider 'the real deal' when it comes to living a Christ-like life. They do far more for the poor than you and I. We want to fault them for having money, but then, the people that are helped wouldn't otherwise be helped.
As far as the prosperity message goes, there is a Biblical tie-in that most people miss. Read the Old Testament. Most of the people there who had relationship with God, were wealthy. Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Joseph, Job, Daniel, David, Ruth, Esther, Solomon, Saul, etc. Many more were kings and other government officials.
You mentioned motivational speakers. Tony Robbins tells you that you should tithe (in his book, 'Awaken the Giant Within'). Tony said that it sets you up psychologically to believe that you have more than enough.
I would ask you to compare whether the average person who attends church and has faith in God with those who don't. I'll bet you that their average income is more. Why? Because Christians make more money? No. I believe it is because there is a direct connection in what they believe (just like the Jewish people I mention below).
The Apostle Paul said that the blessing of Abraham is upon the Christian today. When you go back and study the 'blessing' of Abraham, it is simply material abundance.
I believe that the Jewish people today are blessed materially because that was their religious pattern. Some people believe that they are blessed because God put some kind of 'sovereign' blessing upon them. I don't believe that. I believe that they are blessed because they 'believe' that they are blessed.
Listen, I've seen most evangelicals treat atheists, non-believes and even fellow evangelicals like crap. Hate-filled, jealous, unhealthily ambitious,etc. I think this is where the true problem lies within evangelical Christianity.
I bet you've not had an evangelical to say what I'm about to say. Nonetheless, it is what I think.
What if you are right and there is no God? (And, no, I'm not going to play the heaven or hell card here. That kind of thinking is very inane.) What if my 'belief' in God causes me to live a more prosperous life (not just money, but in every way). What if 'faith in God' is in reality a psychological phenomena that does enact certain things within my brain that causes me to act and think in a way that makes my experience of living better? I've lost nothing by believing in God, right?
Andrew Carnegie suffered a great deal of criticism in his day for having so much money. Carnegie had a plan that he kept private. His plan was to spend the first half of his life making money and the last half giving it away. The public library system in the U.S. was started by him. The original building where the library was housed in my little town, has a cornerstone saying, 'This building is a gift of Andrew Carnegie'.
These are just my thoughts. Money isn't bad. You don't know how Joel or TD Jakes spends their money and neither do I. I have seen the far reaching effects of the money that they do give to help the poor. TD Jakes brings a message of hope to South Dallas and is literally positively affecting tens of thousands of lives. You may not like what you experienced, but that is just your opinion. I take it that you aren't African American. They do things differently in their culture. It doesn't make it wrong.
Furthermore, even if they do live like kings, they could still be giving millions away to help people in need.
Oh, this is getting way too long. Your response so far?
Kewl, I would do my best to believe you - why wouldn't you know a lot more than me? For all I know you could BE Joel Osteen :).
Of course you don't need to share anything you'd rather not share here. But I hope you'll stick around.
In seeking to give 'ordinary people' a voice, it's not our intention to go too far the other way and deny church leaders a voice. We want to open up dialog. Just last week Jim and Casper met with a pastor from one of the churches reviewed in the book who wanted to talk further about it.
I posted my other response before I realized you'd already responded this morning.
I love positive messages; one thing that frustrates me is the negative focus in various forms of Christianity. "We're all sinners", or "the world is out to get us and ruin our faith". And it frustrates me a lot when Christians seem to be furthering hate.
So I definitely agree with you on those things.
I wouldn't have any reason to lie. And you see, that's the problem. Just because I say something positive about these people, now, you question my integrity. Like I said, you don't know me and really this is all just a volunteer effort on everyone's part.
By the way, just FYI. I am mostly disgusted with most of what is considered the 'evangelical church'. I've rarely attended church in the past 2.5 years. So my defense isn't from some blind loyalty that I have to anyone. That's not where I'm coming from.
I've seen the good, the bad and the ugly. There are some folks out there who are simply in it for money. I've met and encountered them.
Joel Osteen had zero confidence that he could ever fill his father's shoes. After John Osteen died, there were plans to scale way back. Joel was very much a 'behind the scenes guy'. He didn't seek nor did he want to be out front.
The success of all that he's done is not any more surprising to anyone than Joel himself. The way I see it, he is challenging others to a higher standard of living.
But just because he's been successful doesn't mean that he doesn't do good things with the money that is entrusted to his care.
Rick Warren could take millions of dollars a year from his church. He not only didn't do that. He gave back every penny that had been paid to him. Someone might argue that he's living well off of his book sales. Well, my attitude is, he wrote them. Why should I be jealous of him?
Everyone that I know who has become a New York Times best selling author has made a lot of money. To deny these men is ridiculous in my book. And besides that, Rick Warren, Bill Hybels and many others live very moderately.
I just don't get off demonizing everyone who has been successful or who has money. To do that would tell a whole lot more about me than about them.
I am an author myself. What if my books get on the best seller's list? Should I go to the publisher and say, 'Oh it wouldn't be right for me to make any money.'
I've had money and I've owned land. I gave 3.5 acres to a build a new women's crisis and abuse recovery center on it. I had to have the land in order to give it away.
I see and hear a lot of folks saying, 'Why don't Reverend So-in-So give all of his money to the poor?' Well, the bottom line is, you don't know what Reverend So-in-So is doing with his money. Are some abusing it? I can guarantee they are. I've seen them upclose and personal. Are some doing some incredible things in helping others? I guarantee they are? I've seen them upclose and personal as well.
It doesn't take much brains and/or thought to just criticize someone because of the way that they appear to you. You could be wrong about your attitude towards them. You don't know those people. To presume that you know their heart is ludicrous. (I'm not saying 'you' specifically but those who would presume such).
I have so much more I could say, but I'll save it for later.
Kewl, I'm not questioning your integrity.
I like how you defend people against comments you find unfair based on your knowledge of them. I try to do that too. I quit (evangelical) church two years ago, but I still would defend church leaders I know who are good people against unfair comments from those who don't know them.
Kewl, I'm sorry your long post got lost - first because it's very frustrating when that happens, but second because I would have liked to read what you were going to say.
What would your ideal church be like? (If you can put 'ideal' and 'church' together at all - I can't, at this point in time)
Helen,
That's a question that I think about often. So, thank you for asking.
First, I would keep it very simple. I would probably do simple, intimate songs like the little courses, God IS So God, and even some of the old hymns that are easy to do with a guitar (I play guitar), like, Only Believe, He's All I Need, etc.
The music would be simple, yet faith-building and spiritual.
The only other thing I would do is some straight teaching beginning with the Garden of Eden. I'm not big into end times prophecy, proving creation or any of those issues. I know most of those issues inside and out. However, I have no desire for a bunch of contention on issues that don't help people to live their lives better.
I'm not preoccupied with harping on hell, sin, politics, homosexuality, abortion (though I do believe that the abortion issue is a no-brainer; just glad my mother didn't believe in it :), same sex marriage, demonizing others who don't believe like me, etc.
I am very interested in a close, spiritual, conscious relationship with God. I find myself talking to God and experiencing his presence often.
I am fascinated with God. I'm not hung up on the terms that use to describe God as in the Universe or whatever. I actually believe that many of the people who refer to God as the Universe, are really attempting to set themselves apart from the hate-mongering, judgment filled 'Christians'.
I'm not into studying and focusing on what is wrong with the world. I'm am into focusing on what is 'right' in the world and doing all I can to increase that.
I perceive that light dispels darkness. Don't curse the darkness. Just turn on the light. Show people love. Help those in need. Make all the money you can so you help as many people as you can. I find not inconsistencies in that.
Back to the 'ideal church' (I do enjoy my A.D.D. from time to time). It would be simple, straightforward, non-condemning, deeply spiritual, caring, loving, supportive, 'life giving'. I would invite people 'just as they are'.
As Jim suspected about me, I pastored a church of over 1,000 people for 15 years. I live in the Bible Belt (just north of Dallas). There is a cultural, religious mindset that is very difficult for me to fit into. Again, I don't fight nor am I on some crusade against it.
I just know what I've felt in my own heart for the past 32 years of my life. It has never gone away. Religious people couldn't take it away from me. Mean, bigoted church-goers couldn't take it away from me. Its still there. But again, my A.D.D. manifests and I digress from you question. (Plus, I'm a writer if you didn't notice).
I didn't proofread my last post some please overlook the obvious errors.
thanks
Hi Kewl, thanks for your response. It was nice of you to write that out just for me.
I didn't know you're a writer but I'm not surprised since you're very articulate.
I sometimes get caught up in what's negative but I try to focus on what's positive. I don't read the Bible systematically anymore but I remember lots of it and I still like that verse in Philippians "whatever is pure, noble right, lovely, admirable, excellent or praiseworthy, focus on such things".
I wouldn't want to censor people who need to talk about difficult/negative experiences but for me, I've found that it works best if I carefully limit how much of that I do and otherwise focus on more positive things.
I'm not against God or people who love God. I like what you said about your ideal church and God. And I love the creativity of people with ADD, by the way. Thanks again for your response.
Matt, are you saying that churches pastored by Joel Osteen and T.D. Jakes have dancing chorus lines and tithes waved in the air? Did you witness this personally at both of their churches, or about hear this from a trusted source? I don't know much about these men, and agree that this is curious.
Kewl
You are very articulate.
Where do you get your history with all of this stuff?
You sound like you could be or have been a preacher yourself
Kewl
One more thing, you said...
"What you haven't seen by visiting their churches 'one time' is what they really do for those who are in need. I guarantee you that they are doing far more than you and I. I guarantee that they are doing more to feed the hungry, clothe the naked than you and me."
I agree and I also agree with Helen - Why should we have to go to church more than one time to hear about these great works
Why doesnt they make stage time to interview just one ordinary peerson each week
Jim,
Well this time. I gave a very lengthy response and your system didn't take it. I hit 'back' and it was gone.
Would interviewing one normal person guarantee that Joel isn't getting rich off of people? Would parading and boasting about how 'we help the poor' prove anything? Would it satisfy some? Would it not also cause other critics to just say, 'These people are pretending to help the poor when in fact I don't believe that they are.'?
A friend of mine told me once, 'You're friends don't need an explanation for your life (because they know you) and your enemies would never believe one (because they've already made up their mind regardless of the facts).'
If someone looks at a person who is in a high position, has control over a lot of money and has become quite famous and judges that person on the basis of those few things, I can only say that that person isn't thinking very deeply. (In fact, it sounds like the argument of most of the B.S. you hear from evangelical church members).
I'd try to restate everything I said before the system didn't except it but I'm not going to go through all of that again for nothing.
Most people do not have a clue at the position that a pastor is in. Its really not worth going into if you've already found fault and judged the man with the very thin shred of reasoning that you've given. I'm not wanting to be unkind but I believe we are purporting ourselves to be reasonable, thinking and intelligent people here.
Aren't we?
One other thing. People love to judge and condemn preachers. Its been an American past time for years. Especially if the preacher seems to be successful and has responsibility over a lot of money. This is nothing new.
This forum is obvious set up to rate churches. As I said earlier and isn't where I need to be.
I've been around this thing for almost all of my life. I know way too much to accept unsubstantiated allegations and judgments. If you all only knew.
Let me say it this way. The darker side of religion is darker than you can imagine. I've watched some sit in the back room and laugh at how they 'pulled the money out of people.' I've heard them reason that they should have asked for more because in their minds, they didn't get enough. I've seen them take the cash and put it into briefcases and take it home.
I've watched them prolong the service just to count the money and then decide to go out there and take another offering. Friend, some it is far darker than anything you've ever seen.
But I can assure you that if you have your sites set on Joel Osteen and T.D. Jakes, you are way off base.
"I see it like a gnat on an elephant's butt. Doesn't have much effect on anything."
I agree - we are like a gnat on Joels butt which makes it even more surprising that you would notice us
Kewl, Helen, Jim,
It's been fascinating to read your dialogue. Thankyou!
Had a couple things:
Kewl--was wondering about "The Apostle Paul said that the blessing of Abraham is upon the Christian today. When you go back and study the 'blessing' of Abraham, it is simply material abundance.", which you said up toward the beginning. This is a new interpretation to me--never have heard it before. I had learned that the blessing of abraham was Jesus, who descended from abraham. Would love to hear you elaborate on this a bit.
Wanted to touch on the whole positivity/negativity thing. One of the huge struggles I had with the church in America, at least to the extent that I experienced it, and a big part of what caused me to stop doing church, was excessive positivity.
Dan Allender put very succinctly. He asked "What's the most beautiful moment in the history of creation?" I think I kind of connected on this one, cause I answered "Resurrection morning--the original Easter". And he replied "Yep! And what came right before that--*why* and *how* was that moment so beautiful?" He went on to talk about how often the church, and christians, in refusing to study/meditate on/ponder the death of god, and 3 days of final, all ecompassing despair, robs all the glory from easter. It's only so beautiful *because* it was so ugly. It's only so mind blowingly glorious *because* it was so mind numbingly horrifying.
My experience in the church was that it was unwilling or unable (or both) to acknowledge the *very* real existence and prevalence of the darkness. There was lip service--brief mention of--the darkness, and we zipped right on toward hope, love, life, the noble, pure etc. etc. Meanwhile, both my experiences and my observations were of a world that is drowning in a sea of war, hatred, starvation, disease ... I could go on. It made the whole thing seem enormously overwhelmingly fake. It was enormously unsatisfying. If the church can acknowledge the reality and depth of the darkness, and *then* in the middle of that legitimately offer light/hope/salvation, well then they will be starting to embody the glory of easter. But by and large they don't. I mean, of course they don't. That is devastatingly hard to do. It requires the overwhelming pain that genuine hope brings. So often the church opts for the much easier American advertising model instead.
just some thoughts
Abraham received,
a promise - that God would make his seed as abundant as the stars of the sky and the grains of sand on the seashore
a blessing - I will bless you with abundant blessing
Jesus is the ultimate blessing. However, Paul said that the blessing given to Abraham came upon the church (Gal. 3:14).
But God gave Abraham a blessing in his lifetime. It was material abundance.
Most of the Old Testament figures were highly prosperous. The way I see it, God gave them blessing to be a blessing.
When Jesus talked about in Matt. 24 (25?) about feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the prisons, etc., I see this as being possible through prosperity. You certainly can't feed anyone else if you can't feed yourself.
Granted that a lot of prosperity motivations are not fueled by the desire to help those who are in need. That's not my problem. There's nothing I can do about if I did take it on as my problem.
Nonetheless, I see that prosperity is for that very reason. I've personally used it for that very reason.
I live in a moderate sized home in a good neighborhood. I drive a nice car (but older) car. But it really wouldn't matter if I lived in Beverly Hills. If I had the means to feed the poor and help others in need (AND DID IT), then what difference does it make where I live or what I have personally?
I see a lot of people begrudging someone who is prosperous out of jealousy. I've also seen a lot of people who don't help others criticize someone else for having money or wealth, yet they themselves don't have a clue as to what the wealthy person does with their money.
I've heard a thousand or more times, 'Why don't they sell that and give it to the poor.' Well, the truth is, they could be giving hundreds of thousands of dollars to the poor without announcing to anyone. Jesus said to let your giving be done in secret.
I will say this. I know a lot of people who have a lot of financial resources who fund a lot of programs for the poor. In fact, most of these people are involved in doing such things.
And the fact is, they are going to continue to make a lot of money and continue to help a lot of poor people regardless of all the naysayers. I've watched them be judged by those who are doing nothing, yet, they still continue to help those in need and still continue to keep it to themselves.
Most of the people I know who do this would find it embarrassing for others to know what they do.
Today, a pastor friend of mine called me. He told me that a minister friend of his gave $1,000,000 towards building AIDS clinics in Africa this past week.
Now the guy who gave the $1,000,000 lives in a very nice 'estate'. A lot of people know where he lives and he gets a lot of criticism for having such a large home.
However, I can tell you this. Those people who receive the benefit from that $1,000,000 who are dying with AIDS could care less how big of a house he's living in.
Now, I'm going to convince all of you that I'm a heretic by what I'm going to say next.
"I believe it is wrong NOT to make as much money as you can in order to have the resources to make as many people as you can, live better. I also believe that the ultimate hypocrisy is having a healthy mind and ample opportunity (and if you live in the U.S., you DO have ample opportunity) and not doing anything with it other than criticize others who are doing something with their lives and doing something to help others in need."
If you live in America and have the enormous opportunities that we have and don't do all you can to make as much money as possible while helping all the people that you can, then, I personally don't believe you care one thing about poor people. You can point fingers at preachers, business people or whoever and say, 'They've got too much'. The big question is, 'What are you doing to help the poor?'
You aren't helping the poor by presuming that everyone who has money and calls themselves a Christian is in fact a liar and a fake. That doesn't feed one hungry child. That doesn't pay one doctor bill for some one in need.
All I'm saying here and trying to bring here is some rationality and common sense. I know what I'm talking about. I've given hundreds of thousands of dollars to help those in need. No one reading this (as the lady said earlier) knows who I am. Nor will they ever know who I am.
I have been in places of responsibility with a lot of money. I know what I've done and I know why I didn't parade in a church service. Jealousy, criticism, pure meanness, abounds. Inside and outside of the church.
Money is a tool and a huge responsibility. Most people who have access to a lot of financial resources, know that. Most of them that I know, handle it responsibly and help a lot of people.
My view is a bit different from most other views on here. I realize that. My view is different because my experience has been different. But I do hope that the people here and who are reading this do use some common sense, rationality and integrity.
If you judge others who have a lot of financial resources and who you don't know what they do with those resources, yet you presume that you know, and you are doing nothing yourself to help others in need, then I would say, check your integrity.
Kewl, I'm reposting your latest comment on our churchrater blog because it's easier to have discussions there than here. (And it's just as anonymous as here - all you need to post comments is an e-mail address)
[I'll also post this over there] I hope people will think about what you've written. To me it's fascinating how people tend to be quicker to judge some people than others. You're absolutely right - why should we assume people are selfish just because they have more material possessions than us? And why are we judging them instead of focusing on whatever WE can do to help the poor?
I love to hear from people who have an experience I haven't had - to me that's *very valuable*. I so appreciate your taking the time to engage with us even though we have reminded you of the same prejudices you have found elsewhere. We want to learn and do better. Thanks for giving us the opportunity to learn from you.
Anyway, I hope everyone who has participated in this discussion will go here to continue it:
http://www.churchrater.com/blog/2007/09/29/in-defense-of-rich-people-who...
First, let's look at my ratings.
Friendliness: 5
I mean, come on. This is Lakewood Church. You are greeted over 20 times before you get into the sanctuary. And Joel Osteen is the friendliest guy around.
Singing: 5
Some of the music is about prosperity as a blessing from God. Sure, it is more than I am used to (growing up in a small Baptist church) but hey, nothing unbiblical about blessings and praying for them. Hymns are sung regularly, sometimes with a rock remix. Hillsong pieces are a regular, and of course, the worship leaders of Lakewood write music.
Preaching: 3
Let me put this out front: I do not go to Lakewood because of Joel Osteen. He is a prosperity preacher. There is nothing unbiblical about it, but he teaches a LOT on it. Sometimes it gets old every Sunday. That said, I agree with what he says.
Overall, Lakewood gets a 4. It isn't perfect, but you show me a church and pastor that is and I'll give Casper some Salvation pills.
I read the book and it was pretty good. One of the reasons I didn't put it on my top 100 list is because, basically, the arguments aren't anything new to me. I have come across many opponents of Lakewood and you guys sing the same song.
1) Money. In the book, it is almost as if Jim portrayed tithing as something you give according to how well the pastor "performed" (the one week free trial comes to mind church comes to mind). I am not sure where you got that impression - that is not biblical tithing at all. I give because I am commanded to as a servant of God, not because of some sugary message Victoria gives on tithing. I am not rewarding Joel Osteen or Lakewood with my tithe for being a "good pastor and church." I do it because I strive to be obedient to God.
Also a side note on money: Why wasn't "Jim and Casper Go to Church" an internet print available to anyone free of charge? Why make it into a book to sell? Not only that, but a book that sells on amazon for about the same price of any of Joel's books. This just seems interesting to me that Joel is accused of "using" Christianity to make money when you guys have, in essence, done the same thing (not even mentioning the “companion DVD”)
2) Non-personal. Sure the main service is huge but nowhere in the book did it even mention house groups, Sunday school, or age groups. My parents attend a house group weekly with 9 people from Lakewood at a group member's home (on rotation). I go to the college and 20-somethings services Thursday nights with about 150 others that I know by name. Also, the college and 20-somethings are starting there own life groups this year in addition to the Thursday night gathering. I don't see fellowship as a weakness at Lakewood. If you looked a little deeper, you would not have either.
3) "Singers dancing around" - I read this either in the book or on this site. We are to praise God with everything we have. Dancing and all. Although I have never experienced any dancing at Lakewood. A lot of jumping, but no dancing...
4) Tech, Tech, Tech! - You know, God said we should praise him with the cymbals, the tambourine and so forth. Do you think God wants us to limit the tools for worship with cymbals, tambourines, and stringed instruments? Lighting, fog, sound, projection – these are all tools used for worship. Worship is not about these tools. They focus attention and contribute. They create effect just as the tambourine creates effect. Who is to say that if intelligent lighting and fog machines were around in David’s day, there would not be Psalms about them? Every tool is used for the glory of God.
And finally, something totally unrelated. I found it interesting that you brought laptops into a church service for note taking on a book. I am an uber-geek, but I’m not quite sure what purpose you couldn’t have accomplished with a simple pen and piece of paper. It seemed a little dumb that you would try to be unnoticed spectators, all the while typing away on laptops during the entire thing.
Daniel,
Thanks for responding.
I was honestly saddened to hear there's no dancing at Lakewood. Why not? I've always remembered Mr. Miagi's advice in next Karate Kid: "Never trust a spiritual leader who doesn't dance" =)
I find giving is actually a lot more fun when I can see my gifts going to help people who are actually in some kind of dire need (which is to say, people who don't live in a highly developed nation, perhaps one of the one billion who don't have access to potable water, for instance.) than when it's going to pay light bills for a sanctuary or rent bills for a middle or upper middle class pastor. That doesn't feel like giving, it feels like ... buying--like membership dues at a club or something. Isn't "tithing" a bit of a technical term under the rather complex law system of Mosaic theocracy?
Despite appearances, I rather suspect that there is rather an enormous difference in the book related monetary situations of Jim and Caspar and Joel. =)
Ben,
Well, I guess I have a personal definition of dancing. I see a lot of jumping and moving around in excitement during worship, maybe that is what you would define as dancing?
Great! There are a number of charities around the world that you can give to and see your results. Biblical tithing, however, says nothing about all of it going to charity. Lakewood has world missions (and local missions) that it supports through tithes, however that is not the reason for the tithe. We are to bring the tithe into the storehouses - the local church. By the way, Joel Osteen doesn't take a salary from Lakewood. I'm not sure if that "middle-class pastor" comment hinted at that? So go ahead! Even though a large percent of money given to most charities goes to corporate suits, I encourage everyone to give to charities of their choice! But the tithe is for His house.
Not really. Joel is more successful than Jim and Casper. But I doubt that if Jim and Casper started selling millions of copies they would grow soft hearted and give it away for free (but still sell the companion DVD, of course). Then again, maybe I assume too much.
Daniel,
Thank you for continuing to engage! =)
"moving around in excitement" works for me =). I do a little moving around in excitement, in a somewhat coordinated-with-music fashion, every once in a while. Although I'm ruined forever in terms of my perception of white people (including myself) dancing or clapping ever since I hung out in West Africa for a few months. Ah well.
I'm a bit curious about your phrase "Biblical tithing". As I understand it, the system designed in the Pentateuch, to which Malachi is referring, actually had 3 different tithes? Wasn't one of them supposed to go to the Levites, who weren't allowed to own property?
I mean isn't it to some extent true that civil government and religious institution/government were in some sense of a whole under that system? To what extent were the tithes actually more similar to our own taxes--money paid to maintain and provide for what amounted to the bureacracy that kept it all running, as it were?
I guess what I'm saying is that I'm not super clear on how you carry over the "tithe" from the fairly complex mosaic/jewish government/religion system outlined at some length in the OT (which I certainly don't pretend to understand at any depth whatsoever) to: A. the movement founded by Jesus in palestine in the first century and B. the sunday morning church/social club institution which we have in America of the 21st century.
Ok, I see how some of the above could be a little ... provocative. I want you to understand I'm not deliberately attempting to be provocative. I'm wanting to be genuinely curious, and failing to some degree. I hope you will take my words in such a spirit.
Bottom line, surely you would agree that there is a great deal of difference, and a great deal of room for such difference, in "christian" understandings of what it may or may not mean to attempt to carry the 3500+ year old Jewish concept of tithe over to the much more recent concept of "christian in America in the 21st century"?
And given that, I would reiterate that within that room, I find it a lot more delightful and meaningful to give to people in dire need. I'm fine for people to give 10% of their income, or any other percent of their income, to whatever organization they think of as being christian, or church, or what have you. (although I do find it disturbing that such a tiny percentage of the money that flows through churches in the U.S. goes to help alleviate problems like 30,000 children dying of starvation every day, or milions of new refugees streaming out of Iraq, or a billion people with no access to potable water, etc. etc.) (and just to string parenthetical statements together here and thus make this very nearly unreadable, I don't think the so called "church" in America is coming remotely close to making a priority out of helping the the poor and oppressed in a way similar to either Jesus *or* the Mosaic system) Hopefully they'll return the favor, although I mostly doubt it for a largish chunk of the American population. =)
A very wise fellow I know once wrote to me that part of the reason he more or less started opting out of the Sunday morning church model in this country is because he could no longer figure out *why* they were doing whatever they were doing. That really resonates with me. I'd much rather give where I can see/feel/understand the "why"--where it makes sense to me in the midst of my ongoing relatively feeble attempts to see humanity from a more compassionate perspective.
Ben,
I find it interesting that on a site where churches are to be rated, such theological discussions take place. I read part of your blog and saw you are an opponent of mega churches. Don't worry, I didn't fall out of my chair in disbelief. I think you have a different agenda, but I'll fill you in on my beliefs...
I sense a bit of anger toward the church as it is today from you, Ben. I want to put this out front: I don't think the church is perfect. BUT I do believe Christians are doing good things in the world today and strive to continue to do good things. I think it is a bit unfair that we are blamed for a billion people not getting water. I know several Lakewood members who are doctors that have been on more than one mission trip caring for the sick. They recently went to Africa and before that, Peru. The bottom line is that everyone has their own, "better" stewardship plan for the church.
I believe that the Bible, although written thousands of years ago, does have an audience today. Because Malachi was writing to the Israelites, does it mean we should discount this book entirely from our everyday lives? I don't believe so. As an audience member of this book, I will take into account what it meant and what it means for me, today. I decide this based on my faith and the truth that the Bible is the Word of God.
Jesus did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. Is it difficult for you to believe that the OT and NT have a link? Or do I choose which one I believe in and discard the other?
Also should Christians shrug away the OT because it is of Jewish origin? Last time I checked, my Bible has more books from the OT than just the book of Malachi. I didn't even ask the Jewish people's permission before I believed in the story of Adam and Eve...
You think you have a better stewardship plan for Lakewood Church. The leaders of the church think they have the best plan. You can't please everybody =)
On the surface, comparing what Jim and I do (make mad money off a book on churches... whoops! Did I say "mad money?" I meant SAD money, rather NO money, but that's not the point) to what Joel does seems fair and square.
But we make money (rather, don't make money... honestly, we haven't seen a dime from any royalties) in a fair and square way: we have a product you can hold in your hands (a book) and an agreed upon price ($16.99). It's the way capitalism works. It's the same as an hourly rate for labor, buying a car, etc.
But Joel and every other rich preacher makes money by making false promises of earthly and heavenly rewards. Remember: I am an atheist. I do not believe there is a god. I do not believe other people--in their heart of hearts (rather, their brain of brains)--believe there's a god either, and that includes Joel, et al.
So why I think he's bad is he knows he's peddling a lie. He knows he's taking money from people who can barely afford it. He knows that he is profiting massively. And he knows that--as long as everyone else continues to go along with the lie--he can continue to profit.
The reason Christians may want to dissavow Joel is that their religion's founder, Jesus, said this about making money:
Luke 16:13-15 (New International Version)
13"No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money."
14The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. 15He said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight.
23"Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their fathers treated the prophets.
24"But woe to you who are rich,
for you have already received your comfort.
25Woe to you who are well fed now,
for you will go hungry.
"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.
And on and on and on... Joel makes (and keeps) too much money to be considered a follower of Jesus.
Casper,
Joel Osteen doesn't serve money.
=)
P.S. I am not going to argue with a person who tries to hold Christians accountable to the Bible, but doesn't believe in it. I could reply to your writing about the lady giving "more" more than anyone and Jesus applauding her for it, but it is from the Bible, and remember, you don't believe in it. Christianity is hypocritical because we are humans and we mess up. If you dismiss it simply because of human nature, what is the use with even talking to you about it?
Also, you still fail to realize that Joel Osteen does not take a salary from the church. So the money that he is "taking" from a worldly poor congregation member or a television viewer is non-existant.
AND why not answer the question? Since you aren't making any money off your book, why sell it? Why not give it away? I bought it. Why take my poor, in debt, college student money?
Please, Casper, tell me the maximum a follower of Jesus can make (and keep) before you condemn them. I want numbers.
Hi Daniel,
I think it’s absolutely fair of me to hold Christians accountable to the bible. After all, that’s the source of your beliefs and what makes it so easy for me to see how you all stack up. (But it’s harder for you to see how I stack up as I have not yet published the “Matt Casper” code of conduct… suffice to say, there are rules to which you may hold me accountable: 1. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. 2. Be honest. That’s it so far…)
Osteen may not take a salary, per se, from the church, but he is incredibly wealthy from his faith-based enterprises. And as he supposedly answers to a higher power who, according to your bible, was very much opposed to wealth accumulation, that makes him a hypocrite.
Tell me, please, how Joel Osteen with his massive facilities, his ski trips, his chartered planes, his TV studios, tell me how he heeds Jesus’ words… and remember, it’s not me that holds him and you accountable: it’s the words in the bible you claim to believe every word of. (Interesting side point on this: so many so-called Christians defend their homophobia by saying it’s in the bible. Well, the same book of the bible also forbids eating shrimp, and there are far more shrimp being eaten than men having sex with each other. So instead of trying to rewrite our constitution, these folks should be out picketing Red Lobster… don’t you agree?)
So far why I don’t “give away” the book, I think I answered that pretty well. I worked hard on it. Now, I am selling it. That’s how we do things in America. And I’d love to make money off the book. I think the work I did in the book is a wonderful way to make a living. What makes my book, in my opinion, a more honest sell than what Joel sells is that I am not making any promises beyond, “I think this is a good book and you might like it.” Joel promises heaven, riches, etc., and can in no way back up what he’s saying. Maybe if Joel said something like, “If after one year of tithing you do not get the rewards I promise, then you get your money back.”
So far as “the maximum a follower of Jesus can make,” I don’t think a Jesus follower can make anything beyond sustenance, really, because Jesus’ commands to you were “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." So it looks like the most you can make is nothing. It’s all there in the bible you believe to be your god’s word. Sorry.
The reality many Christians in America have trouble addressing is that Jesus was most certainly not a capitalist. And we most certainly are!
My two cents, as always...
(Interesting side point on this: so many so-called Christians defend their homophobia by saying it’s in the bible. Well, the same book of the bible also forbids eating shrimp, and there are far more shrimp being eaten than men having sex with each other. So instead of trying to rewrite our constitution, these folks should be out picketing Red Lobster…
ok, I was going to stay totally out of this conversation until you had to pick on the shrimp. Not the shrimp! For goodness sake, Casper, don't go throwing verses out there like daggers in a magician show. Don't you know we can eat shrimp, and every other kind of shell fish, because Peter had that killer vision outlined in Acts?
LOL
Ok, ok, seriously, this is an interesting debate you boys are having here, ands both of you have made some compelling points. The harsh reality, Daniel, is that whether it's deserved or not, most of working class America takes note when a religious leader lives a luxurious life. Whether it's accurate or not, it does create a portrait in many people's minds that money (which is power) is highly esteemed by the leaders of big churches. Otherwise, why do they have such big, honkin' churches?
And remember that Jim and Casper acknowledge that they were capturing snapshots of Sunday morning gatherings and productions. They were not conducting in-depth investigative reporting. They simply wrote a report of what they saw and experienced together in churches on a Sunday across America.
God bless you!
(and it is so cool to hear that you are actively connected to other people in your community through your college group. Nice!)
The one flaw in your argument is your consistent reliance on the word hypocrit. WE never claimed to be perfect. WE are not saying we aren't hypocritical, so that discussion is out. WE FULLY agree with you that we Christians are hypocritical.
You say God hates wealth. David, the very "man after God's OWN heart" was at first a shepard. God turned the kingdom of Israel over to David. Yeah, he was poor. Hmmm.
How rich do you think Osteen is? First, he flies PUBLIC Continental. That alone shows me you make up half of everything you know about Joel Osteen. The massive facilities, tv studios, you mean the church? God's house? You think he owns that personally? You are delusional, Casper.
Interesting side but I am not homophobic. Three of my best friends are gay (Cody, Heyward, David) so don't associate me in your stereotypical views. Shrimp was an OT Levitican law. Jesus came to fulfill the law. I do agree with you that some (most) Christians aren't very Christ-like with the gay issue.
Joel has never promised Heaven to a soul. He has never promised riches or financial gain. How sad it is that you resort to making things up with no merit.
You still forgot to put numbers in that last post. I mean, man can live on bread and water and plants. But God gave us meat. Should we then refuse it? We are blessed with opportunities in this world. If you believe every follower of Jesus should be a homeless (after all, we don't really need a "home" to survive) starving (but still alive) person, then you most certainly are reading from the book of Casper.
“For I know the plans I have for you,' declares the LORD, 'plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."
Note that God has plans to prosper us. God does not tell us He has plans to make us mediocre and sustained.
Daniel
I'm enjoying the debate. It's somehow managing to be relatively lively without descending into unkindness. Kudos to you and Matt and everyone.
I'm a little confused here. You said the following about tithing:
"Because Malachi was writing to the Israelites, does it mean we should discount this book entirely from our everyday lives? I don't believe so. As an audience member of this book, I will take into account what it meant and what it means for me, today. I decide this based on my faith and the truth that the Bible is the Word of God.
Jesus did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. Is it difficult for you to believe that the OT and NT have a link? Or do I choose which one I believe in and discard the other?
Also should Christians shrug away the OT because it is of Jewish origin? Last time I checked, my Bible has more books from the OT than just the book of Malachi. I didn't even ask the Jewish people's permission before I believed in the story of Adam and Eve..."
And then you said the following about shrimp:
"Shrimp was an OT Levitican law. Jesus came to fulfill the law."
So if I understand you correctly, Christians are supposed to tithe, based on O.T. law, but it's fine for them to eat shrimp, or ... wear clothing made of mixed fibers, or ... have sex during menstruation (only with their spouse, I suppose) or ... what have you, *contrary* to O.T. law.
well, you get the drift. So *do* I understand you correctly?
Yes, of course O.T. and N.T. have a link. but it is not by any means super clear or super prescribed what/how that link works. I mean lots of different Christians have different takes on that, right? Are you kewl with that? Can I be a "Christian" and not "tithe"?
I'm sorry I came across as saying that christians are to blame for a billion people not having water. I did intend to communicate that.
However, .... to what extent are we, some of the wealthiest people on the planet, responsible (and I don't mean "to blame", I mean ... "having a duty toward, based on our relative wealth") for seeing to it that those billion *get* water?
Shouldn't the church be a world leader in making this happen? Shouldn't it be a huge priority for followers of Jesus? And yet what percentage of the money that goes through the church in America is focused on such goals? Maybe I misunderstand the priorities of Jesus?
By the way, if you haven't seen it, A.J. Jacobs relatively recent book "The Year of Living Biblically" is both deeply hilarious and deeply insightful and moving in various places. He's not at all disrespectful, which is really delightful. He decided to spend a year trying to follow every rule in the Bible. He divided it up something like 8 months O.T. and 4 months N.T., and he had a panel of rabbis and pastors, bible-loving men, who agreed to help him in his attempt to sincerely follow all the rules and laws--so throughout the year he consulted these men, had lunches with them and so forth. Anyway, it's *very* readable--I recommend it.
er ... typo. It was supposed to read "Did *not* intend to communicate that"
My wife would say I made a Freudian slip =).
Hey Ben,
I was kind of waiting for you to ask that. I mean, if I believe Christians can eat shrimp, then how can I believe they are called to tithe, too?
I believe that each verse in the Bible has a purpose. I believe that the verse can be fully relevant in today's world but also some (like the "no shrimp clause") are totally meant for a group of people for a specific reason at a specific place in time that we need not worry about today. Why was it an abomination to eat shrimp? Many (including me) think it was for health reasons. I think we understand and can cope with any sickness that may come along while eating shellfish today. I see the tithe as something that supports the church. I see it as giving God back an incredibly small portion of what He has given to us. Everything I have is God's, so if the Bible says I am to bring it into His storehouse, I interpret that as the church. I see it as a present-day commandment. I don't see it as charity, I think they are two separate things.
One of the hardest things a Christian can do is explain to a non believer what they believe and why. They end up with faith. That is the basis of all religion (even evolutionists have to have faith in the undiscovered science of nothing smashing into nothing creating matter). I believe that God has called Christians to tithe. I have no reason to believe it was singly meant for one people at one time in history (like shrimp).
I don't see how anyone can claim total knowledge and understanding of the Bible or God's works. I believe Christians are to tithe. I am not going to look down on you if you don't tithe (MANY people at Lakewood don't tithe). I feel it is furthering God's kingdom and there is scripture to back it up, but I'm not going to see you as less of a Christian for not doing it. If you truly believe that you aren't called to tithe and that belief was not put into place by a worldly greed of money, then who am I to say you are wrong?
I agree that we have a responsibility to help others but I don't think we are ignoring it. I think the church is striving to do more, to give more, to make helping others a higher priority for those needing basic things around the world. I don't think it is something that can be solved quickly, so it's not fair to ask, "why isn't it completed yet?" without noting the things that the church HAS done to get to the goal. Our human nature will always mean we are doing less than we could and I don't think that will ever go away.
One of my friends in the ministry is reading that book. Sounds good - it might be the next one I read!
"Hey Ben,
I was kind of waiting for you to ask that."
Huge grin. Glad to oblige =)
Daniel,
Along the lines of some of the stuff we've been talking about--if Lakewood is actually proud of, or at least ok with, the level of what it is doing for the poor as a percentage of their budget, then why don't they publish an annual report/budget?
Or maybe they do, and I just couldn't find it? =)
Ben,
I don't think it is available on their website. Really, I have never been to a church where the budget is broadcasted, only given to church members. I have seen it handed out with the bulletins one Sunday morning. I think a little over 30% went to international missions. I don't remember about local missions.
Sorry I couldn't give you a better answer.
"Really, I have never been to a church where the budget is broadcasted"
Yeah--why is that? What does it mean? Why shouldn't lakewood, as arguable the biggest church in the country, take the lead on this?
I don't know what that would accomplish, Ben. I think it would only get more people to complain and claim they have a better stewardship plan for the church. Of course, if you don't want to play church stewardship committee, you could always criticize the church as being prideful in posting how much they give to missions/the poor/etc.
Also, its not like its confidential. If you really want a copy, just attend a service when they hand it out. They don't check "membership cards" or anything...
"One of the hardest things a Christian can do is explain to a non believer what they believe and why"
I know the feeling :-)
Daniel
Very well written piece and very fair as well - at least as fair as our subjective version was.
I want to post this for all to read but I need a few days. I'm sure it will attract alot of thoughts.
I hope you check back so you can interact with people
One question before I go. Where do you find Jesus commanding us to do tithe in the bible - or if that isn't possible - where do you find the bible commanding us to tithe?
" I give because I am commanded to as a servant of God, not because of some sugary message Victoria gives on tithing."
I feel like this is a setup, Jim. I know you have heard these verses. I am eager to hear your take on them.
Malachi 3:8-11 “Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed Me! But you say, In what way have we robbed You? In tithes and offerings.
(9) You are cursed with a curse, For you have robbed Me, Even this whole nation.
(10) Bring all the tithes into the storehouse, That there may be food in My house, And try Me now in this, Says the LORD of hosts, If I will not open for you the windows of heaven And pour out for you such blessing That there will not be room enough to receive it.
(11) And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, So that he will not destroy the fruit of your ground, Nor shall the vine fail to bear fruit for you in the field, Says the LORD of hosts;”
Daniel
yes I have heard of and of course preached these same verses.
This approach is called proof texting. It is what we do when we need to find scriptures that support our view.
Due to the fact that this approach (a.k.a. cherry picking) made me and thousands of other followers of Jesus crazy - since it can be used to prove anything.
I decided that when it came to challenging and controversial issues I would give Jesus the final word.
Thus when it comes to tithing I need to see where Jesus made as big of a deal out of it as TV preachers do before I decide whether it is "biblical"
BTW - I'm sure that it must have ocurred to you that TV preachers focus on this and all the myriad other money related topics come off as somewhat self serving and disingenous to Non Cs?
Jim,
One could also view dismissing verses in which we believe would cause worldly loss to us as selective.
Since this is a site to rate churches, I'm not sure if it is a proper forum for debating what Malachi 3:8-11 means. I will say the God-breathed (well, I know it is) Bible tells us that if we do not bring the tithes into His storehouse, we are robbing Him. That sounds fairly serious to me. I, personally, am not going to require the God who created the universe to harp on an issue more than once before I strive to follow it.
BTW - I'm sure you already know that Joel Osteen does not ask for money on television. I'm not sure what self serving televangelists have to do with anything on this page, or anything that is Lakewood or Joel Osteen related. Maybe your posts should be a little more focused?
ALSO, Christians not accepting free-for-all abortion may seem bit self righteous to "Non Cs", but I'm not sure I care... (yeah, that wasn't very focused, but I'm only replying to your tangent)
As a true member of Generation Y, I barely skimmed through these comments and I'm ready to click on to a new page. But I did have one thought:
Do Mega-Churches spend more money per attendee than your average small church? Thinking that larger institutions are usually more efficient (bigger factories, bigger stores, bigger class sizes, etc.), is it possible that Mega-Churches spend less money per capita? Anyone know?
@sshaffer63: you raise a great point and I am actually intrigued to dig for some statistical data. Just a gut feeling that the mega-cs have to spend more money per attendee than your average neighborhood church.
The church I briefly went to in San Diego (a mega-c - The Rock pastored by Pastor Miles McPherson) was about as inexpensive to run as a respectable semiconductor company in Silicon Valley. Just the employee roster alone was impressive - anything from youth leaders to pastors, junior pastors, assistant pastor, and even surf coaches. Flat screen TVs all over and a sound system to make any garage band weep from envy. I am not judging or saying that poverty is preferable to riches but will be very surprised if the mega-churches are more capital efficient. Better run, perhaps...less expensive to run - doubt it.
When searching the web for other feedback on Lakewood Church of Houston, Tx I found your website. I found your post to be extremely accurate! I have been a Christian since childhood, and attended bible school, but nothing prepared me for the hypocrisy, legalism and critisizm I encountered at that church. The messages are centered on conquering, which means they make a lot of enemies by conquest. There are a lot of practices that go on there that I do not find in the bible. For example, a land developer said he knew Lakewood for them purchasing members from small churches or pastors who are struggling with their numbers. In other words, the pastor would give Lakewood their members in exchange for money and closing down their small church. I find this nowhere in the bible. Those practices are found in the business world. (Small businesses being bought out by larger corporations.) You are dead on when you said you sensed this. Coming from an athiest, I was surprised. Some Christians don't have as much discearnment as you do. Maybe you were being too generous by giving them a 1, when it comes to being a good Christ follower, I think they deserve a 0. Anyway, just thought I'd let you know how accurate you were. Keep up the good work.
that is an unbelievable story... do you have any substantiation for it...? and thank you for your kind words. I often get asked by people, "Why do you do this [work with Christians]?" And I think it's my way of making the world a better place... which I think would be if the Osteens, Jakes, Tiltons, Creflo Dollars, et al, of the world simply stopped what they're doing. Anything I can do to help that cause, I will...