Here’s Pastor Mike’s response to TXatheist’s review of his church service.
At least give me my 40 people in attendance, we take all we can get. :) I would love for TXatheist to judge me in a series of sermons which would give him some additional context in which to frame his judgements.
I’d like to comment on TXatheist’s notes about the Asian remark: I used this race of people because I have Asian friends in business. I stated that they come here not knowing our language, our currency, our culture. This makes it much more difficult for them than someone that is born and raised in our nation, yet they manage to succeed. In my travels over seas I find that learning foreign currency and language is a great barrier, particularly at first. My point was that Asians work hard to learn our language and our currency and are able to be successful in business. There was no bigoted statement. I could have said the same thing about my Iranian friend that is in business for himself. (more…)
A young man and pastor (who I respect and enjoy) from a church I reviewed awhile ago - La Grande’s Foursquare Faith Center - recently posted this feedback…
Jeremy said:
Hey Peter,
this is Jeremy, the youth pastor at La Grande Faith Center. I understand that my personal feelings are fully wrapped into this “rating†and I can give way to the notion that had I read another review about another church I may not have thought twice (although I am not convinced of that).
Now setting aside how I feel, I have a couple of questions about the motive and intention of “rating†churches. What exactly is the point? A church being evaluated by Biblical standards and precepts is an absolute must, but I am honestly intrigued about this “rating systemâ€. What is the constructive purpose of “rating†individual churches by “man’s standard†and posting it on a website? Not saying that some of the questions being asked are not relevant, however, what is the primary heart behind this faculty? It is unarguable to say, “There is no such thing as a perfect church,†and I quote this not as an excuse for my own home church, but as a point of communication. The stylistic differences from church to church spreads a broad spectrum, but focusing on the different styles of a church is kind of like “majoring in the minorsâ€, would you agree?
It is a given that the theological foundation and leadership will set the trend and focus of any church and I wouldn’t say theology and leadership is a minor issue, but what should be at the forefront? Jesus Christ! I guess I just don’t see Jesus being glorified in this church rating thing. And I am not so naive to think I am altruistic in my every motive for life, but I am willing to say, “Lord, search me and know me.†I guess all I am asking is that you would do the same in regards to the way you are “rating churches.â€
My new online friend, Pastor Gregg Lamm (who pointed us to the “Minister in Crisis” blog) allowed me the pleasure of a mini-interview about his own thoughts on rating churches and gathering feedback for how we “do church.” I particularly enjoyed meeting a pastor who comfortably uses the word “bitchin’.”
Gregg,
You mentioned earlier that you were going to ask some of your new visitors to rate your church: 2nd Street Community Church, in Newberg, Oregon. I’d like to spread your spirit of openness to hearing feedback, and wondered if you’d officially answer a few questions for me…
1. Why do you want visitors to RATE your church? How will it prove most beneficial to you?
“Because I’m more afraid of leading a flock that is irrelevant and nonattentive to the needs of people - be they Christ followers or not - than I am of being teachable. If what people say is true I need to listen to it, and learn from it, correcting the course of the ship as needed. And if it isn’t true, then I’ll just chalk up their perceptions as a reminder that some people only feel intensely alive when bitchin’, and let it roll off.”
2. How will you go about encouraging/exhorting visitors to RATE your church?
“I think that at the beginning I’ll go gingerly and ask people I know who are visiting our flock to do the rating. I know, I’m a pussy. But hey, give me a break! I’m new to this whole “church rating” thing. And everytime I think of the whole process and the name of your website I think it’s strange that if you just add the letter “n” into the mix it becomes “church ranting.” Coincidence? I don’t think so. Truth is often stranger than fiction.”
3. What responses do you hope to hear, ideally?
“That we’re connecting with needs in people’s lives, accepting them as they are, that we’re unpretentous and not taking ourselves too seriously, that we’re committed to the expositional teaching of God’s WORD but not turning out Jesus-robots who are afraid of doubts, questions and mystery. And that people like me. That they really like me. You know, like Sally Fields at the Oscars in the early 1980’s. Just kidding. But I don’t want them to hate me… or even worse, tell me that I’m boring them to death. Now that’s a real sin for any pastor-teacher.”
4. Where do you think your church might be weakest?
“Our small group structure, the state of our facilities … they’re not horrible, but we meet in an old, old armory. And that, as I’ve told you before, that our website needs a lot of updating. We use it to get out information, but it’s not very user friendly. Hopefull this next year we will update it by using new software and have a new format.”
(more…)
You know someone has an opinion when the first word in his or her post is an exclamatory: ICK!
Last week Mike O. engaged Jim Henderson (& several more of us) in a discussion about Christians (particularly pastors) with fancy cars & their preaching about “tithing.â€
Mike O. said [edited for length]:
ICK! This is a real hot button with me: Christians & their preoccupation with other people’s money…
I did a three-year study of prosperity & wealth in the bible & here’s what I found: the bible says NOTHING about how much a person can or can’t have. It shows NO CORRELATION between wealth & righteousness. It doesn’t say everyone should be rich. It doesn’t say everyone should be poor or even modest. But here we are bickering about pastors that drive nice cars. Show me where the Bible says anything about how much is too much or how little is too little for a leader in the Body of Christ.
There are wealthy Godly people & there are wealthy wicked people. There are Godly poor people & there are wicked poor people.
One of my absolutely favorite verses in the entire bible on this subject is Matt 20:15 (the parable of the laborers hired at different hours) - Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? OR ARE YOU ENVIOUS BECAUSE I AM GENEROUS (to someone else)? Are YOU envious because He is generous to some other pastor?
…My point is that money is irrelevant. Some have it. Some don’t. For you to judge someone else’s heart based on whether or not YOU HAVE DECIDED their car is too nice - well, I think that is a completely Pharisitical & religious spirit; contrary to the Gospel. We would never do that to “the lost,†but we want to pick a fight with someone, so let’s pick one with one of our own brothers? Good thinking.
Show me the verse where Jesus or anyone else for that matter tells us you have to be poor to be a Christian. I guess if I use your logic, to be a REALLY GOOD Christian, you should be homeless…
Jim, not to take on the big guy here, but you said: “Jesus did this stuff all the time.†He did? Jesus protested & poked fun at his own followers? I beg to differ.
Everyone is trying so hard to encourage & say “good thought†& “good point†here, when really if Jim had said it about a non-Christian leader he would have been (hopefully) raked over the coals.
The whole point of Off-the-Map, I thought, was to help Christians reach non-Christians by seeing things from their perspective & reaching into their world. So other than the fact that non-Christians would like you better if you ripped on a church leader, how would this be helpful?
…Why would we go to such great lengths to “understand those we don’t agree with†when they’re not Christians, & then not even think to understand our own brother who we don’t agree with?
…judge a tree by it’s fruit. If they abuse what GOD HAS GIVEN THEM, don’t support them.
End of story.
Anyone have a response here? (more…)
John O’Keefe wrote at GinkWorld.net about being with a friend whose former pastor wouldn’t leave him alone. Read on…
…finally, as the frustration level for my friend seemed to get hotter then the steam used to make the foam on our café mochas, he looked the man straight in the face, and as loud as he could said, “Here are the top ten reasons why I think your church sucks.†As he started his list he looked at me and he could tell my shock.
“First†he said, “Your church is totally irrelevant to the community. You all talk a good game, but you do not see the dynamic of the community changing around you…
1. “It does not understand the community at large!”
2. “It has poor leadership!”
3. “It has no solid vision!”
4. “It is graying, quickly!”
5. “It’s inbred!”
6. “It’s concerned with look and not action!”
7. “It’s comfortable in its misery, and is looking for company!”
8. “It’s out of touch with the 21st century!”
9. “It’s all about money!”
10. “It’s all politics!”
(more…)
