Christianity or church is above all a spiritual endeavor
This is an excerpt from feedback on Jim and Casper Go To Church posted by Christina.
The last chapter in the book asks if ‘this’ (church) is what Jesus would have us doing? This question basically arises out of failure to see value in church due to ignoring the spiritual dimension of it.
There’s another dimension to Christianity, which is spirituality or spiritual life. Christianity or church is above all a spiritual endeavor. Christianity is not reduced to faith, but neither is it reduced to tangible good works for the world to see, thus precluding any need for a church body or group to exist.
For one thing, Jesus said that the Kingdom of God is within us, & that His kingdom is not of this world. Therefore, following Jesus is about more than doing good works of service in the world, even though it includes that. Jesus made it clear that it is highly valuable what is happening inside a person, in the inner heart.
Jesus & the Bible shows the value of the spiritual dimension of life in many, many ways…. As examples, with some verses from the Bible: “You must become perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.†“It is not what is outside a person that corrupts†(e.g. washing a dish), “but the inner man,†(basically a call for spiritual renewal, such as promoted in Paul…. “be transformed by the renewing of your mindâ€). “Seek first the kingdom of God & His righteousness, & all these things will be given you besides†(a call to spirituality, seeking righteousness, spiritual maturation/development) “I will send you the Spirit of Truth, who will guide you in all things†(which is not something that happens by the action of doing good works. Instead, it happens in prayer & places like church). Other verses: “My sheep hear my voice & know meâ€; (Hearing? Knowing? Again, sounds like the result of spiritual activity & effort, not something that happens in the middle of cooking food at a busy soup kitchen). “My food is to do the will of my Father in heaven†(showing Jesus’ concern with more than the physical & an example to us). “Rejoice in the Lord always, I say it again rejoiceâ€, (an example of a spiritual effort/ action, with no tangible good works involved). “Consider it pure joy when you encounter trials of all kinds†(which leads to spiritual perfectionâ€â€¦. the work of dealing with the mind, heart, emotions in the middle of trials, & the encouragement of church & it’s preaching & Bible readings are a good place to do that, along with fellowship with believers). “Pray without ceasing.†“Meditate on my Word day & night.†“Sing spiritual songs.†“Encourage one another.†(All spiritual activities, relating to participation in church as well as to what is happening in the inner person, so we walk through life with the right mind & heart & proper motives & being filled with encouragement, as we do good works).
Scripture makes it clear that who we become through this spiritual journey of life is very important to Jesus, not just the list of things (good works) we did. We are called to become beautiful spirits, in the image of Jesus, & that requires attention, just as physical exercise & grooming & the like can create beautiful outward appearance.
I felt sad for the authors, certain they have not experienced the spiritual depths God has blessed me with through church & spiritual activities, or they could never say much of what they said.
For example, I swear on my life I’ve heard the voice of Jesus at church, many, many, many times. Not in my head or internally, but through the ministry at church, the songs, readings & sermon. I’ve often prayed about very specific matters prior to church, & repeatedly heard such specific words through these vehicles, that I was totally blown away. I feel a person who could say we don’t need church has no comprehension of what is possible through church, or how Jesus ministers by way of his Spirit to & through the church. He promised His Spirit would lead us, & that is not some pie in the sky, intangible ideal.
It happens in a real way, through real, down to earth vehicles like His holy church & those serving Him there. (And I can tell you there is no experience on this earth or possession or anything under the sun that can touch the joy of the experience of hearing Jesus’ voice, & truly receiving guidance of the Holy Spirit. It has transformed my life).
Going to church is also a matter I prayed about, & received answers. For example, I prayed about where to go at Christmas, while considering visiting a church outside my denomination or something, beginning to wonder where I belong & even desperately pleading about this. Immediately after this prayer, I picked up the newspaper (not even seeking an answer in this case) & on the very front page, the first story I read was amazingly the story of a person who attended church in my denomination & it spoke of how they were converted to this denomination; (it was a secular paper mind you)!
This kind of ‘coincidence’ has happened so much, I can no longer question it or see it as a freak mishap. So I don’t believe at all that Jesus would tell me there’s no need for church..
Comment by: Helen
1 03/15/08 5:49 AM | Comment Link |Christina, I think Jesus was (and is?) looking for people who would heal the world.
And he said it would take commitment and not be easy - that’s why he (and the Bible authors) focused on what you call spirituality but I generally think of as ‘good character’.
Spiritual people/people of good character care enough and have enough desire to do good works (heal the world) that they will get involved and stay the course.
Other people will give up.
In my opinion, that’s why spirituality/good character matters.
In my experience good character is not exclusively acquired at church. In fact church is often not particularly effective at creating people who are honest, hard-working, faithful, etc. Based on my experience it seems quite possible to attend lots of church and pray and sing hymns and still not become that sort of person.
At the same time, some people who don’t go to church, including atheists, figure out how to be that sort of person and are busy making the world a better place.
And I can’t believe Jesus is disappointed with them, thinking “Yeah but where’s your spirituality? Don’t you realize these things ‘don’t count’ unless you’re praying, reading the Bible and going to church?”
Comment by: Jim Henderson
2 03/15/08 11:37 AM | Comment Link |I have had the same experiences but those experiences are subjective and aren’t designed to provide “objective” truth.
That doesn’t make them “not true or real or invalid” (I happen to think many of them are) but they remain protected from objective analysis (gladly) in the protection of faith, hope and mystery
Comment by: Jim Henderson
3 03/15/08 11:37 AM | Comment Link |BTW - Thanks for reading our book.
How did God lead you to do that?
Comment by: Christina
4 03/22/08 11:48 PM | Comment Link |Helen,
Thanks for your feedback. Numbers of thoughts came to mind. Such as “being’ versus ‘doing.’ I agree & disagree that becoming a good spirit is for the sake of doing good in the world. I agree— for those who are given much, much is expected. Or- Narrow is the path that leads to life… I see all of this related to God’s Kingdom. What is God’s Kingdom? It is a state of existence occurring between all created beings in which the ways of God, (which includes all of HIs standards, HIs laws… such as love, helping your brother in need, etc) are fulfilled by beings who have the capacity to fulfill them. This is why Jesus had to die. He actually upheld God’s standards of excellence as the standard of being for all beings, even though we humans fall short. He is a God of justice. He cares what ‘happens’ & what is. If it was ‘anything goes’ the cross would not have been necessary. God could have just loved us as we are, & united with us spiritually in that state, totally anhilating HIs standards in the process & keeping us at our lower level of being, expecting nothing more of us than what we already were/ are. The cross created love between God & people, while upholding the highest, holiest, most excellent standards of being, calling us to become made in the image of God, to become God-like. God is loving, forgiving, merciful, caring, meets needs, etc. All that God is, we are now called to. Humans never would have met that standard on their own, or been capable of loving union with God by reaching HIs standard of being. Jesus said… If you’ve seen me, you’[ve seen the Father. Union in love involves likeness of being. They are tied together. God died on a cross to make this ‘likeness of being’ possible. When God sees us, He sees Jesus, because Jesus paid the penalty for our shortfall, making up the difference in who we are & who we are called & created to be. We now have the way opened for intimate, marriage of our spirit with God. So yes, being & doing are intimately related. Who you are forms what you do. But just as marriage is about something more, something deeper than just buying a house together, running the house, going to events, etc… so is relationship with God. Relationship with God is a factor in this whole scenario, which goes beyond doing stuff for Him or His people. Additionally, ‘being’ in itself is significant. Jesus said, unless a person is born of above, born again, He will not see the kingdome of God, for example. There is much concern of God for who we are, who we become as spirits, in and of itself. Again, the story of Martha & Mary…. Jesus said that Mary, who sat at that feet of Jesus, has chosen the better part… only one thing is necessary…. & it will not be taken from her. I happen to be in a life position at this time where I cannot ‘do’ much out in the world, or do all I’d like & envision. As Ecclesiates says… there is a time for everything. I prayed about this, & on the very day that I prayed about it, the daily reading in the meditation book (which I was guided to read… streams in the desert… when I kept hearing readings about ’streams in the desert’ after asking what devotional to read… & also discovering this was the name of a devotional)… this devotional gave words of comfort for those in a life position who cannot do all they would envision doing for God, when they feel they could be doing so much good, so much more, if their life circumstances were different. This same devotional page spoke of the value of the journey of the spirit, that something is still being accomplished in the spirit. The Bible speaks of similar things, such as in Hebrews, chapter 11, about considering all hardship as discipline…. God is treating you as sons…. so that you we can become holy as He is holy. I believe God values ‘being’ in & of itself… apart from just always ‘doing’… or He would arrange our lives to always serve the purpose of ‘doing’… He would not allow these periods of time, long or short, in people’s lives, when life circumstances are preventing them from accomplishing the greater good they could be fulfilling. I believe with all of my heart that it was a personal word from God I received, that the moment I prayed about how much more I could be ‘doing’ I heard a word that called me to care about ‘being’ & the value of life events that are geared to accomplishing good in the spirit in that regard, even when ‘works’ are not able to be accomplished. Sure, God cares about the ‘operation’ & ‘events’ of HIs kingdom, but He has the utmost care about the ‘beings’ who comprise that kingdom… & what they are & what they are becoming. Jesus said, Man was not made for the Sabbath, the Sabbath was made for man. In the spirit of this line of reasoning of Jesus, I believe, in the eyes of God, ‘being’ is exalted above ‘doing.’ This is similar to how God teaches us to care more about our spiritual state than what we have…. seek first the kingdom of God & His righteousness & all these things will be given you besides. God clearly values ‘beings’ & their spiritual state…. & this is not reduced to simply a purpose they can fulfill… but there is value in the ‘beings’ in & of themselves, apart from any ‘works.’ Therefore, any endeavors serving this is also valuable in that light as well…. such as spiritual effort…. & it is not solely for the sake of what the ‘being’ will ‘do.’ As I once heard…. we are ‘human beings’ not ‘human doings.’
Regarding your comments about ‘good character’ not just being created at church…. I would like to share that, again, I went through various stages in my spiritual path…. bored kid at church, etc. When I was younger, I went through a period that I was ‘radical’ in my Christianity, but I had some trouble with the ‘character’ part, despite studying ministry, wanting to ‘live my life for Jesus.’ I did some pretty stupid things & some pretty wrong things, even shocking myself when seeing more clearly my failures to live up to the Christian standard. Something wasn’t working. What is my view on this today? For one thing, I agree that we can’t judge people… God sees the heart. I look back & see some contributors to the problem…. inner wounded-ness from some serious childhood injuries & lack of met needs that continued to follow me, & so on. So often, we judge things in the “Church’ as if it is representative of what works & doesn’t work with Christianity. The problem is that we are looking at ‘snapshots’ when Christianity is about a full length motion picture movie. We are all in different stages of maturation, even as Christians. I believe God could have ‘zapped’ me spiritually into a being better than I was, opening my eyes, giving me greater understanding, etc…. but He allowed me to fail in some regards, for I learned some things better that way… & was left with a greater openness to His Spirit & willingness to work with Him, after seeing what was happening when I didn’t. Should people judge the Church based on where I was at as a teen/ young adult Christian, who hadn’t matured…. or where I am at now…. or where I am at in many years from now or right before I do? At which stage am I fit to represent ‘Cburch?’ My feeling today, after all I’ve been through, is that the problem is with our perception & expectations of ‘Church.†As I heard a couple of ministers recently say… we are shocked when we are hurt by people at church, or when they fail, (etc)…. sure, we expect (such crap) from the ‘world’ but somehow, we have higher expectations with the church. The church is actually a critical care unit.†My point is that the Church of Jesus Christ is composed of beings in many stages of spiritual maturation. Jesus died to make up for the slack found in that imperfect Church. It is just that society & even the Church itself isn’t examining the Church with the best set of expectations & the like.
Lastly, my last reaction to your comment was that I have personally seen the difference between ‘making effort’ to be of good character, being a good person…. & what has happened to me upon deep encounter with God, who showed me He is calling me to a marriage with Himself. I was one of those people in Church that people in the ‘world’ or church would shake their heads at. I did some good works here & there, & ‘out of character’ things for the Church. I loved Jesus. I truly wanted to give my life over to Him, but I was at war with all kinds of inner needs & longings & the like, that I hadn’t risen above yet, & even was not yet capable of rising above yet. I was even kind of ‘stuck’ for a while. Not growing a whole lot. Life made me grow some. But what really made the biggest difference for me was, after learning why God’s way is better by hard experience, also then having encounter with God…. spiritual action. I liken this encounter with God to what I have heard with birds….. flapping & flapping & working & working… versus riding on an air current…. being taken along by something beyond your own power & ability. This is not a mental concept for me. God clearly let me know He heard my prayers & that I could hear His voice. It shot me high up… It changed everything…. It was like it set a fire inside of me… to know God is real… to know I can truly have real relationship with God…. truly hear His voice… I also heard God make promises to me for my personal life…. when I have been through much…. to see value in my whole life, etc. All of this worked together to transform me, make me a better soul, etc, in ways that I know with my whole heart & soul never, ever would have been in my reach by my own effort, without encounter with God, with trying to find my only my own motivation to be good & do good, etc. To me, the difference would be like a row boat versus a motor boat…. I used to ride a row boat… & that is how I liken making effort to be of ‘good character’ by own’s own effort & motivation…. & I’ve now experienced something totally beyond me, that boosted me in an amazing way… a motor boat… & I see the difference, could never go back, & cannot wish to do so or agree that it would be just the same as having a motor. I don’t believe all of the promises of the Bible, of receiving help from God in becoming a spirit in the ‘image of Jesus’, by the power of His Spirit, is some pie in the sky concept that doesn’t happen in the real world. I believe with all my heart it happens.
Lastly, of all of the people I know, Christian, agnostic, atheist…. I see all of them do ‘some’ good. But I honestly can’t say that I see people in my own life environment, who do not have a strongly spiritual life focus, as truly capable of getting very far beyond focus on themselves & their own ego & desires & the like. I just don’t see it happening, even though they do some good as well & can have some amount of ‘good’ character traits. I think real encounter with God, & coming to believe, even convinced of a much greater, larger reality & purpose beyond one’s own little life, makes a big difference in making this possible. It’s like what I heard about being empty headed….. you can get rid of negative thoughts…. or you can replace them with healthy, positive, life giving thoughts…. there is a big difference.
I actually feel there’s more I could say… such as about seeing the depth of evil in the world… & how I have seen firsthand that Christianity is a real solution that I don’t think anything else matches… including all of the psychology of today, etc…. but all good things must sooner or later come to an end.
Love ya. Keep reflecting. thanks for sharing with me as well. Christina
Comment by: Christina
5 03/23/08 1:27 AM | Comment Link |Response to comment 2- by Jim Henderson. My thoughts as I read your comment were this… Yeah, I’d naturally gravitate to thinking that to be true… just assume it. I just automatically assume…. as a way of life…. spiritual things have no objective basis… there is just this subjective reasoning applied. But with what I’ve now experienced spiritually, I don’t assume that as a ‘given’ anymore. I actually have obtained a science degree in college. I learned scientific thinking. How is it that we know most things scientificallY? It is by empirical ‘evidence.” We know the speed at which objects accelerate due to gravity by having dropped objects over & over & measuring the time & distance of their fall. Then, we see a pattern… Hey, this keeps happening. Therefore, we conclude… this is ‘the way’ it works. To tell you the truth, I have used the same exact type of reasoning spiritually. What is it that helps me know I heard the voice of God? It is the same kind of reasoning…. exactly. My sense of probability… even without applying mathematical calculation… lets me know… hey, there’s something to this. Here’s an analogy…. let’s say I wanted to determine whether or not this computer I am sitting at has artificial intelligence… CAn it really communicate with me in a substantial, realistic way? I could ask it questions. Let’s say hypothetically, it can answer. The answers it gives however, are all sort of like ‘fortune cookie’ answers… general truths… that I could somehow ‘make’ fit my question by some ‘creative’ thinking on my part. I could manage to see some answers coming. However, after a while, I’d probably eventually catch on that I’m getting some ‘programmed’ answers, with general truths, that can somehow manage to fit my questions, only by my own stretch of imagination. But now, imagine that I ask very specific questions, & I don’t get ‘general’, ‘one size fits all’ responses…. but very specific responses…. for example, I ask it to tell me my address, & it states my street address & house number, rather than telling me something like ‘home is where the heart is.’ Now, the first time this happened, I might think… lucky coincidence. But if I got specific answers to enough specific questions, I’d begin to get a little freaked about this computer & begin to wonder just what it is capable of. Now, granted, some things are harder to empirically ‘measure’ than others, yet, even if we can’t always precisely define it, we still have a sense of ‘measurement’, of general ’statistical probability.’ This kind of reasoning really is not much different than the kind of reasoning we consider ‘objective’ & ’scientific.’ Now, this is the same reasoning & awe I experienced with prayer. I didn’t receive ‘fortune cookie’ ‘one size fits all,’ ‘general truth’ answers, but very specific answers. As examples…. after a 1 1/2 year study of the whole Bible, I next felt a little lost about what to do next with it; (this wasn’t the only way I read it however). (There’s more details, but I’ll leave it at this). I had options… read daily booklets, giving a verse, etc… but I had serious, strong concern (for unstated reasons) of being led through the Bible in a way I could trust. I prayed to Jesus to please help me know what to do next, how to go about continuing to read the Bible. I decided for this one time, it would be best to turn to a little, daily reading booklet that I had available, that lists a reading for the day, & gives a discussion. Part of what I next experienced was indeed more of what we would consider ’subjective’— I “FELT” strongly touched spiritually. I began balling my eyes out as I read the dsily reading, & deeply sensed something very real, very deeply spiritual that was happening. But there was also a more ‘objective’ dimension…. meaning that if I had told a second person what I was praying that day (how to read the Bible now)…. & then showed them what answer came…. they could see if the answer was specific in addressing this specific question. There was something ‘measurable’ about it. Either the reading for the day gave a clear answer to my queation…. or instead talked about something totally unrelated …. (such as a myriad of possibilities of Bible readings… forgive, trust God, give money, pray more, etc, etc). What was the reading for the day? It was the story of the disciples on the road to Emmaus… & how Jesus taught the Scriptures to them. I did still feel a little uncertain of what this meant exactly…. in terms of precise action… But I did understand that Jesus could lead me through reading the Scriptures somehow, & to trust Him to guide me through… & what to read. Now, what would make this even more ‘objective’ even less ’subjective’… Similar to science…. probably the most ‘objective’ thing that could happen would be to ask the same question at another time, & get the same exact answer, right? This would be like dropping an apple & seeing that it falls at 9.8 meters/ second… every time you drop it… very similar. Well, I did not do such a thing with such a ’scientific’ intention… (what some might call testing God, etc)… but without meaning to, this is exactly what transpired. I had been so busy, that I was not even keeping in mind all that God had been showing me. So, about a month later, I asked God again… pleading… begging for very clear guidance, so I would know it was God… what to do with reading the Bible…. Again, I turned to a daily reading booklet… & the reading for the day…. was… what do you know…. the story of the disciples on the road to Emmaus, & Jesus teaching them the Scriptures. It was a couple weeks later that I got around to writing this down in my prayer journal…. To my amazement, after writing about it, I turned to a different resource (streams in the desert daily devotional, which I had also been led to)…. & the page for that day opened with talk about the Bible passage of the disciples on the road to Emmaus & spoke about not being ’slow to believe’ even when it seems all hope is gone, or all reason to believe is gone. As another example… recently I prayed about a money issue… & to my amazement, I listened to 3 different ministers, & each one of them was talking about money issues in a way that answered my question, right when I listened. When this began to happen to me with prayer, not only was I in desperate life circumstances (which I believe was God’s way of helping me endure & survive all that happened), but I was on my last thread with any hope for having faith anymore, with all I had been through in my life. What I first began to notice with a continual string of perfect answers to specific prayers, was the amazing probability involved…. I just knew it wouldn’t be happening if there was ‘nothing’ to it, & it was just meaningless coincidence. (And actually, one could apply some level of statistical mathematical analysis… For example… one could measure how many Bible passages talk about money… or God providing during a time of need… compared to all of the possible passages or Bible topics… you could also use similar measurement for the ’source’ you turn to… such as ministers on radio or tv or daily reading booklets… a survey of topics… & see how often a certain topic is covered…. You could evaluate how often you pray about a certain topic, etc… & gain some sense of the probability that the topic you prayed about would be discussed on the exact day or at the exact time that you looked for an answer in your daily reading booklet, etc. Now, I did not go to that extent… but as a person familiar with the Bible, daily readings, the public preaching of ministers…. & all of the possible topics that could have been the reading for the day or the sermon for the day… compared to how perfectly the messages kept matching my prayers… I had ability to have a sense that it was a way- far-out probability against my constantly receiving such perfect answers to such specific prayers the very first time or minute that I sought an answer. So, despite not using a full range of mathematical analysis, the reasoning was very similar to ‘objective’ even ’scientific’ reasoning applied in vastly different settings. Yes, in general, the ’spiritual’ still involves faith & is more subjective…. but I also use caution in automatcially concurring how different the reasoning is…. I believe with all of my heart that God’s promise is true…. If you seek me with all of your heart, you will find me…. And God can work in ways that really give us some assurance of faith. (I also believe He deals with different people in different ways… & at differnt stages in the life of a person.
Comment by: Helen
6 03/23/08 6:29 AM | Comment Link |Christina, thanks for your response.
Christina, it sounds like you have limitations on you that you didn’t choose and that other people don’t have (physical or otherwise) - I’m sorry to hear that.
It makes sense to me that God would respond this way to your wish that your circumstances were different, so you could do more.
But there are lots of people who could be doing more and to them it makes sense to me that God would challenge them to do more.
Discussing this is a bit complicated because of the various ways people define ’spiritual’. Some people would say anyone who gets beyond a self-focus is ’spiritual’, including atheists.
Many people who don’t have any beliefs in any supernatural beings have a strong value system - they are not ‘empty’ and they do have positive life-giving thoughts. Just not ‘Christian’ ones per se.
I think our experiences of non-religious people must be different. The ones I know evidently have impressed me more than the ones you know have impressed you.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
7 03/23/08 9:45 PM | Comment Link |Christina
Thanks for the detailed response