Beth and Traci: God Might Be Kind Of a Sadist
During my favorite-est portion of any Christian women’s gathering — the sharing — I talked last weekend at Convergence about being an atheist in a “Christian nation,” and two of the women in my group forewent “honoring my space” to express doubt about that phrase’s accuracy.
I regret not asking at the time why that seemed untrue to them. The new Pew Forum U.S. Religious Landscape Survey mightily backs up my assertion: 78.4% of the more than 35,000 U.S. adults surveyed identify as Christians. 51.3% of those are Protestant. The percentage of atheists in the study?
1.6.
One point six.
Bloody hell. I’m a middle-class white girl in a slim, slim minority.
Another interesting point from the survey: 44% of Americans switch over to a different religion in their lifetime. I haven’t looked at the fine print yet. They may be counting people like me — not that that could have much impact on the figure.
I’m curious about what that 44% says about salvation. I mean, a lot of people have said there’s one right way to be religious, one right way to be saved. My Catholic dad would say the same, and he’s coming at it from a different angle than the commenters here. What if he left Catholicism (23.9%) to become a Baptist. Which way would he really be saved? And do you get credit for time served? If God really is Catholic, will he make allowances for Dad’s affair with Baptism? (I’m guessing no, but I think there’s a baptism clause in the doctrine.)
People talk with such conviction about their religion. And then seemingly shrug it off for another when doing so is expedient. I wonder whether that really pisses off God. Then again, many people of all different religious traditions would assert that God pulled them in whatever new direction they’re going, which tells me that he must really be having a good time messing with his followers’ heads.
Comment by: Helen
1 03/2/08 8:51 AM | Comment Link |Thanks for posting about the survey, Traci. I read a couple of news reports about it last week. They pointed out how more people moved from ‘affiliated’ to ‘unaffiliated’ than in other directions (and yes I think they would count you because you moved from Catholic to atheist). I didn’t realize how few of the people who chose ‘unaffiliated’ said they were atheists.
Sometimes I say God told me not to believe in him just to mess with peoples’ heads. I guess that may mean I’m a sadist. Or maybe I’m just kidding (and maybe God is too, sometimes - if he exists)
Comment by: Traci
2 03/2/08 10:07 AM | Comment Link |“God told me not to believe.” I like that.
BTW, Helen: They didn’t have an “almost atheist” category, but agnostics make up 2.4% of respondents.
Comment by: Helen
3 03/2/08 10:21 AM | Comment Link |Traci wrote:
*sigh* they never do.I feel so ignored!
Comment by: Claudia
4 03/2/08 10:25 AM | Comment Link |I believe you’ll find the answer here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufNAFVY0Ibo
(Completely SFW, I promise!)
In all seriousness, though, if you take a look at what we’ve managed to figure out about the universe we live in–the size, level of detail, and complexity of which even our very best brains struggle with–you have to figure that whatever force is behind all that is way beyond our ability to comprehend. So to say that you know with a certainty that that entity supports one side of the doctrinal differences that distinguish the major religions from one another, let alone the different Christian sects, seems the height of arrogance to me.
Karen put a similar sentiment better somewhere in an earlier comment…
Comment by: karen
5 03/2/08 11:28 AM | Comment Link |I’d be interested in the response, too. In my experience as a conservative evangelical, there was a constant message from the pulpit that we were a small, beaten-down minority in the godless morass of America. This wasn’t an occasional sermon, it was a core sentiment expressed constantly, and it was one of the chief reasons we were to expect the rapture any day now.
I think it “feels” true to a lot of Christians because the bible predicts that they will be persecuted for their beliefs by an unbelieving world, and if the bible says it - it must be true.
Also, it seems intuitively right because of the prevalence of entertainment in peoples’ lives. The media tends to default to the secular, so they don’t see a lot of Christian families like theirs portrayed positively on TV and in the movies and they think that the media somehow reflects reality.
The more people see the actual numbers, and educate themselves about reality, the less likely they are to believe the “persecuted minority” nonsense.
As to the atheist numbers from that survey, very few people come out and say they are atheists due to the stigma associated with that word. But the percentage of people who are non-religious (atheist, agnostic, unaffiliated) is growing rapidly, particularly in the last decade.
Comment by: karen
6 03/2/08 11:29 AM | Comment Link |Thanks, Claudia!
Comment by: benjamin ady
7 03/2/08 2:11 PM | Comment Link |Yeah, but our average IQ is way higher than the majority’s average IQ. =)
I kind of understand the two women who questioned the phrase “christian nation”. I mean by self declared affiliation, and also by how we’re viewed by the rest of the world, we are *definitely* a “Christian nation”. But in terms of looking at how Jesus operated, and … what a nation would/could/should look like if the majority of people in that nation operated in the same manner, well, I don’t see it accurately describing the U.S. of A.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
8 03/2/08 3:01 PM | Comment Link |Traci- It is this kind of casualness about suddenly changging our minds about who and what God is that is practiced among Christians and all religoius people that made me crazy (and frustrated) as well.
I mean atheists hear us speak so confidently about our verison of belief /god and then read about other Cs saying the very same thing abour their version - (and we wont even bring up the Muslims or Jews or Unaffiliateds)and they can only conclude that either god is really confused, disinterested or non existent.
For my money - none of this is about God - it is about people seeking security in religion.
I dont think Jesus said one (positive) thing about religion so I am completely disinterested in it and feel no inclination to defend its honor from any attacks. The faster it comes down the better. Maybe then Jesus will finally be free to be public property again
Karen - I couldn’t agree more. This idea was developed by a religious system that needed a way to keep people who would otherwise lose interest engaged (and paying the bills)
Comment by: Lisa
9 03/2/08 8:58 PM | Comment Link |When did Traci mention her IQ? Did I miss something? What’s the number Trac? Just curious.
;)
I do agree with Benjamin’s comment. My father told me he was a Christian at one point when I asked, BECAUSE he was born in America. I thought that was the goofiest thing I had heard, since I didn’t see evidence of Jesus in his life (but who am I to judge his heart). I have a friend that calls herself a Jew, even though she’s not remotely religious and I’ve often said my hubby is a Catholic, only culturally. It’s how he would identify himself because it’s what he’s familiar with. He and I took an online test one time to see what Religion we were more closely aligned with. Turns out hubby is more Buddhist if anything.
I have studied bits and pieces about different cultures. Seems as though when missionaries tell them about their God, the culture tends to meld those ideas with their current religious practices…a little bit of Jesus, a little bit of Voodoo.
I hear a lot of Christians/Americans today chanting their mantras, that I’m not even sure are things written in the bible, but are phrases that have become so commonly accepted, that no one challenges them. The phrase “everything happens for a reason”
Does it?
Remember way back when it used to be said, “cleanliness is next to Godlines”.
Is it?
Is there something in the Bible to back that up?
Jim wrote…This idea was developed by a religious system that needed a way to keep people who would otherwise lose interest engaged (and paying the bills)
I had a professor ask once, “what does the church exist for? Is it just to pay the light bill?”
As I’ve been discussing these topics with other folks, I had one friend tell me (not sure if she read this, or it’s her theory) that religion was created when we stopped being nomadic. We needed religion for all of us to get along. More recently another friend mentioned a book she recently read that states religion needs to be destroyed if we’re all going to get along. What the HELL happened?
I personally have never had any interest in religion, but I have authority issues. When Christianity was presented to me, it was all about a relationship with my creator, not a set of rules. That is so much more appealing in my mind. A lot of people I chat with on this topic, don’t believe that’s even possible.
Comment by: Kathy
10 03/4/08 4:27 PM | Comment Link |I just read the link to the article regarding the Passive/Aggresive Jesus. I too have a problem with Christ on the cross. I also just read an article where the Vatican has dug up (Saint) Padre Pio who has been dead for 40 years, so he can be placed on view, HOW MORBID is the catholic church? I don’t get it…..
Comment by: benjamin ady
11 03/5/08 1:54 AM | Comment Link |What link was that? I missed it.
I meant “our” in the larger sense of the average IQ of the group of all atheists in the US. (let’s see … 1.6% times 300,000,000 … hey look. there’s 4.8 million of us.) I don’t have any evidence for this, it just seems blatantly obvious to me. Every atheist I’ve ever known has clearly has a relatively high IQ compared to the American populace at large. Not that that’s necessarily that hard to do =) (oh dear, not I’m going to get in trouble)
Comment by: Kathy
12 03/5/08 6:55 AM | Comment Link |Jim posted it on the home page.
Comment by: Beth Bates
13 03/5/08 8:24 AM | Comment Link |I don’t know what her IQ is, but that Traci just EDIFIED me again. I’m having the worst of weeks, and she stopped by to jumpstart my day! I love her!
Comment by: Helen
14 03/5/08 12:33 PM | Comment Link |Traci is the best - Beth, I’m glad you have a friend like her.
Comment by: Helen
15 03/5/08 12:52 PM | Comment Link |Btw I reposted the passive aggressive Jesus article on here
Comment by: Traci
16 03/5/08 2:17 PM | Comment Link |If God exists, he’s entirely absent from AT&T. (Hello, hello, all’y'all — after a brutal 31 hours without Internet access. Not that I was counting.)
JIM: I shit you not — I made a similar comment in an earlier draft of the post but then chickened out. So glad you jumped in with that.
LISA: It’s 26. High five!!!
BENJAMIN: Good thing I have a “dumbest person in the room” policy. I like rubbing elbows with smarties so I smarten up. In theory.
BETH, HELEN: Mmmmmwah!
Comment by: benjamin ady
17 03/5/08 3:15 PM | Comment Link |Love your “dumbest person in the room” policy. I’m going to add certain elements of that policy to my mental image of my ideal self.
Comment by: Lisa
18 03/5/08 7:42 PM | Comment Link |Glad you’re back Traci, I have ATT issues too.
It’s time for me to go to the eye Dr. I thought the word “our” was the word “your” when I originally read Benjamin’s IQ comment. Nevertheless, I was being silly and didn’t really care to have a big discussion about whose smarter.
I agree with you Benjamin that the average atheist I meet tends to be pretty bright. But I have met equally clever Christians. I’m guessing that a lot of atheists are thinkers and don’t just accept everything that is presented to them. I would also guess that it takes a certain type of person to just trust and accept something that is unseen. I DO think it takes faith to accept some scientific theories as well. For me personally, it doesn’t seem so difficult to accept that there is an ultimate creator and science just explains how he/she/it did/does it. But then both camps want to argue with me when I say those things.
I don’t know why it has to be either or. Why can’t it be both/and? I was really hoping to have more conversation about this “Christian” nation and how many people I meet and talk to that don’t really buy into the Christian thing. Or rather how many people align themselves with particular groups but don’t even know the core beliefs of those groups. I actually know quite a few people that go to church, I’m guessing to have some sort of sense of community, but really deep down don’t believe the things that are being taught at church. I also know several that call themselves atheists but do find some sort of value in spirituality. I’m trying to figure out what that means for those people.
Comment by: Traci
19 03/5/08 7:57 PM | Comment Link |Hey there, Lisa.
I don’t think it takes faith for scientists conducting the repeatable experiments that support those theories to believe them.
When you say “both/and,” do you mean “smart and Christian” and “dumb and atheist” or are you talking about some mashing-together of atheism and Christianity?
The latter seems like an oxymoron. HOWEVER, I met somebody just last week who told me he was a “God-respecting atheist” and a Quaker. That was a new one on me and maybe ties in to your “both/and” point. (?) He said he needed proof to fully believe but in the meantime he was “cherishing the presence” of God.
Innnnterrrrrresting . . .
Comment by: Eliza
20 03/5/08 8:15 PM | Comment Link |Traci: Atheism & Christianity may be an oxymoron, but atheism & membership in certain religions is not. The Religious Society of Friends (the Quakers) originally came from Christianity, but as a noncreedal religion it has had a big enough “umbrella” to include people with myriad beliefs.
I can think of 3 noncreedal religions which draw nontheists, at least in the U.S.: Quaker, UU, and Buddhism.
I’ll end this post & start another with a few links, for those who are interested in reading more. Then if that post ends up in moderation, at least I’ve said my bit for this evening!
Comment by: Eliza
21 03/5/08 8:24 PM | Comment Link |One of the articles listed at the official “Quaker Electronic Archive” is “The Making of a Quaker Atheist” by George Amoss, Jr, from 1999. In it, he writes:
Comment by: Lisa
22 03/5/08 8:33 PM | Comment Link |I guess by Both/and I’m including lots of ideas. We in western culture tend to compartmentalize more and don’t leave room for ideas that flow together. Maybe it’s also part of Western culture to be so certain about so many things. I tend to be fairly open minded and try to listen to lots of ideas before I make up my mind on a subject. That seems to be a negative trait in my family. Being open minded means the devil can fill it with all sorts of junk (according to mom). Another famous mom quote is to “stand for something or you’ll fall for anything”. I just can’t stand that firmly for very many things.
As far as scientific testing goes, I’m not talking about things that have been tested and proven. Aren’t there still a few things out there that are simply theories and don’t have hard evidence? I can’t give you for instances–I was just half listening to discovery channel the other night, while reading churchrater. The both/and thing is more about why can’t God and Science work together? I pick that because atheists quite frankly tend to make science their god (I’m generalizing of course–just what I’ve experienced)
The God respecting atheist makes no sense to me. Does he respect the concept of God? Does he think being an atheist means rejecting God as having any power in his life but still believes in some sort of entity creator? I don’t get that.
Comment by: Traci
23 03/5/08 8:39 PM | Comment Link |I think those would be hypotheses, but my resident expert is snoozing.
Me neither.
He mentioned that Quakers were regarded as “Buddhists of Christianity” and more experience-based than doctrine-based, so maybe there’s more room for doubt.
Comment by: Eliza
24 03/5/08 8:45 PM | Comment Link |Well, my quote from the essay by a Quaker Atheist went to moderation, even though I forgot to even include the link. That would have been an example of a “God respecting atheist”.
As Dan Barker wrote (or said?): “Basic atheism is not a belief. It is the lack of belief. There is a difference between believing there is no god and not believing there is a god — both are atheistic, though popular usage has ignored the latter.”
The assertion “there is no God” is often called “strong atheism”, while “weak atheism” is the stance that one does not believe in God due to lack of one finds to be sufficient evidence for God. This implies that the “weak atheist” would readily change his/her mind/belief should evidence sufficient to convince skeptics become available, but if there were sufficient evidence to convince us skeptics there would probably be very few if any “strong atheists”. Hope that makes sense.
Comment by: Lisa
25 03/5/08 8:47 PM | Comment Link |You know, the only Quaker I ever met was married to a gal from the Philippines. Are they mostly Buddhist there? Maybe that was part of the attraction.
Comment by: Traci
26 03/5/08 8:50 PM | Comment Link |Thanks, Eliza.
My God-respecting atheist mentioned an “inward light” that sounds like “Christ’s voice within the human heart” in the piece you quote.
He also talked about not shooting for perfection.
It’s all coming together now . . .
Comment by: benjamin ady
27 03/5/08 11:27 PM | Comment Link |Love it. And the corollary, I suppose, from the other side, is that being closed minded means god can’t remove any of the junk?
I think it’s a two way deal. Like with joy and pain. You either open up the door, and both come in, or you attempt (always with relatively low efficacy) to shut the door to the one (in this case, the pain), and end up shutting out the other as well.
Comment by: Helen
28 03/6/08 6:18 AM | Comment Link |I’ve already sold my soul to AT&T - it’s too late for me.
Comment by: Kristin
29 03/12/08 9:57 AM | Comment Link |Claudia, it blesses my little heart to see someone else say so well what I have a difficult time articulating.