How Does This Serve The Kingdom
Once in awhile we get a what I consider to be a very fair minded question. Take a look at what Phil recently posted and let us see how you would respond to his question.
i’ve loved so much of what “off the map†has been about and continues to be about, but this website doesn’t seem to align with everything else. it perpetuates our cultural problem of viewing church as a product and the church attender as consumer- it is no different than “customer reviewsâ€. i would hope to begin to see church as more about relationship and participation. then the “low points†are not something to keep people away from churches, but rather redemptive opportunities for engagement. giving living organisms “ratings†takes the life right out of them- they are now products to be consumed or discarded- in line with our cultural milieu. please consider pulling the plug on this website under the question- how does it serve the Kingdom?
Comment by: Kathy
1 02/26/08 3:37 PM | Comment Link |I too have wondered what purpose all this was for, it seems that church rating, should be named church beating, bneacuse it seems that is what Beth and Traci do, they go from church to church name them by name and tell how horrid they are. I thought we were to build one another up in the faith, and I do not see any faith building. It seems snobbish and unruley and really cruel. But then again, its writing another book and we end up “all about the money” again.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
2 02/26/08 3:49 PM | Comment Link |Kathy
Help me understand why churches want to have their names publically known when they do good things - why shouldn’t it be the same for the opposite?
Also - since this site is open to believers, unbeleivers and everyone in between why should the rules you mention apply?
Do you think churches are in “business” in any kind of public way?
Do you think they “compete” with each other for the same “customers”?
Do you think this is what Jesus had in mind?
Comment by: Lisa
3 02/26/08 4:30 PM | Comment Link |Kathy, Have you read everything that Traci and Beth have written? They’ve given honest accounts of their experiences. Negative along with positive. I think this benefits the kingdom the same way that putting antiseptic on a wound benefits. It stings like hell, but it cleans it out and allows it to heal. “Jesus, consume me from the inside out….”
Comment by: Helen
4 02/26/08 5:48 PM | Comment Link |Wow, Kathy, that’s not the impression I got at all from reading Beth and Traci’s posts. I’ve read lots of positive things in them as well as some negative ones.
Did they say something bad about your church?
Anyway I don’t think Phil and Jim were talking about Beth and Traci’s posts so much as the ChurchRater system you get to if you click ‘home’ in the main menu. As best I know neither Beth or Traci has rated a church using that system.
Comment by: Kathy
5 02/26/08 5:52 PM | Comment Link |Jim, What exactly is is that you have against the church anyway? No one wants their dirty laundry aired in public. Most churches are “family”. For some strangers to walk in and criticize everything from their shoes to their voices, how is that building anything? No, I do not think this is what Jesus had in mind. I have been through church problems and its not pretty. It breaks hearts and tears people apart. I never want to be part of that problem, but I do want to be a part of rightfully dividing the word and leading people to all truth. But Jim, you have to admit that a lot of this blog is just garbage, the sex toys and leg remarks are not wholesome or uplifiting to anyone. Plus they smeared some woman that they don’t even know. Oh I forgot, this is the new liberal church, where there are no rules. Lisa, Sorry Beth and Traci’s remarks do nothing for me as far as edification is concerned.
Comment by: Helen
6 02/26/08 5:56 PM | Comment Link |Kathy, I think it’s quite reasonable for Beth and Traci to comment on Kay Arthur wearing a skirt with a long split in it while she’s urging women to wear modest clothes. If Kay dresses in a way which so obviously conflicts with her own teaching right while she’s teaching, then how can you expect people not to comment on it?
Comment by: Kathy
7 02/26/08 5:57 PM | Comment Link |Helen,
No nothing said about my church, I went to the same church as Beth goes to now. The remarks are arrogant. Who are they to critique someone else’s church or group? Different personalities are drawn to different congregations. Not every church is going to please everyone. I just have a problem with all of this including the original book as you all probably know. I think you are playing with peoples lives and souls.
Comment by: Traci
8 02/26/08 6:28 PM | Comment Link |Ah, Kathy. So right. I am neither wholesome nor uplifting. I’m just a random chick going to women’s ministries and writing my impressions.
It’s a fascinating experiment and has done great things for showing me my own limitations and for giving me a clearer picture of Christianity. I’ve been amazed by the conversations that have arisen from the posts.
Beth and I are not setting out to be cruel, and I don’t think we have been. (Did you read the post about the shoes? Beth was complimenting, not mocking, them.)
Every church we’ve contacted has invited us to attend and welcomed us warmly, so we certainly are not barging in on any family, and our point has never been that all churches should be all things to everyone. That makes no sense. The ones we’ve enjoyed the most have had distinct personalities.
As long as people keep reading, thinking, commenting, and respectfully hashing out church issues on this site, then I think it’s doing something extremely useful.
I also review restaurants, and my hope is that after a restaurant owner gets pissed off about my calling him out for previously frozen pizza dough and a waiter who can’t explain the menu, he makes some changes. I think a restaurant is better off if it treats every customer as if she might be writing a public review.
My understanding is that part of being a Christian is being a good witness. Seems like my pointing out when your crab cakes have too much filler is perfectly fair.
Thanks for writing.
Comment by: Missy Welsch
9 02/26/08 6:28 PM | Comment Link |Grrrrr. Ummm. Let’s see…I’m not sure that anyone has attempted to seriously or not so seriously (for that matter) critique anything.
There is no attempt at or claim to in anyway create a Zagat Guide to churches or women’s ministries, for that matter. This is an attempt to somehow demystifiy the Christian life, what goes on behind the scenes and it has become a somewhat interesting study in human nature. The tone has never been unkind as Traci and Beth report. It is interesting to see how uncomfortable and suddenly spiritually indignant we become when we are taken a little less seriously than we’d prefer. Lighten up. GEEEEEEEEZZZZ. No visit to a church ministry was clandestine or cunning. All visits were openly planned. If Traci and Beth snuck in, like restaurant reviewers, to dine and critique, then, that’s different.
Comment by: Traci
10 02/26/08 6:33 PM | Comment Link |Get out of my brain, Missy!
Although I would argue that restaurants should be braced at all times for reviews. That they should serve every customer like a critic. Shouldn’t churches do the same? They’re supposed to be open to the public, too.
Anywho, thanks for your comment.
Comment by: Missy Welsch
11 02/26/08 6:46 PM | Comment Link |Ha!! I do agree, having started churches from the ground up, that it’s interesting and helpful to know how people perceive our “family”. It was always my understanding that it was good to create a welcoming atmosphere in the fam so that MAYBE other people might want to be in the fam, too, or at least feel glad to be around the fam, member of the fam or not. Did I use “fam” too often in that sentence?
Comment by: Kathy
12 02/26/08 7:11 PM | Comment Link |A church is there to bring believers together for worship and serve the community. Traci, sorry you took that so personal, but you are incapable of edifying me or any other believer because you have no faith. That isnt to say that you are not worth anything (as I know everyone is going to jump on that statement)because you are, but as far as lifitng me up spiritually, it isnt possible. I barely see anything here that lifts up Christ let alone one another.
Comment by: Helen
13 02/26/08 7:15 PM | Comment Link |Kathy, the friendship here definitely lifts me up.
Could you say what you mean by ‘lifts up Christ’?
Comment by: Lisa
14 02/26/08 7:28 PM | Comment Link |So Kathy, what brings you coming back here for more?
Comment by: Helen
15 02/26/08 7:36 PM | Comment Link |Maybe Kathy is taking the opportunity to critique us, just as we crtique churches.
Comment by: Traci
16 02/26/08 7:52 PM | Comment Link |Oh, no, Kathy. I did not take anything “so personal.” I was absolutely agreeing with you.
Uplift is not on my agenda.
Conversation is. And I’m glad you’re holding our feet to the same flames we’re holding churches to.
Comment by: Jeannie
17 02/26/08 8:09 PM | Comment Link |Unless this blog somehow leads someone to saving faith in Jesus Christ, either directly or indirectly, I don’t think this blog does any service to the kingdom.
Yes I do think many or most churches are in “business.” And yes I do think they compete for the same “customers.” This is profoundly sad…souls are not customers. They are people looking for answers and the church’s job, in my opinion, is to introduce The Answer, Jesus. However it seems modern churches instead hand their customers entertainment, intellectualism, humanitarian highs and relativism.
Jesus talked about hired hands and the sheep…I think many churches fit into this category and its wrong. The faith has been relativized (I made that word up) and I can’t figure out why. Is it a bait and switch to get people in the door and then at some point say, “Aha…we gotcha now it’s come to Jesus time.” Or does much of the church simply no longer believe Jesus is THE way truth and life? What are these Madison Avenue churches evangelizing the masses into?
I guess if you believe the kingdom consists not of converted souls, but of big churches full of unbelieving humanitarian environmentalists,then maybe this website is helpful in potentially growing that kingdom.
I’ve been doing a Traci from the opposite end for a few years now; “shopping” for a church where I fit in as a believer. Having trouble finding one :( But I guess I’m doing what perhaps Jesus may have had in mind….trying to live my faith in everyday life and not within the 4 walls of a safe haven of like minded individuals. (emphasis on trying…)
I came on here to benefit the kingdom as I see it…to share the Truth and hopefully :)give a good example of a fundamentalist believer. Now believe *#@%-it or I’ll fly a plane into a building!
Comment by: Jeannie
18 02/26/08 8:12 PM | Comment Link |I said…
maybe “RELATIVIFIED” has a more sinister ring to it….since I’m making up words.
Comment by: Lisa
19 02/26/08 8:26 PM | Comment Link |Jeannie, once people find themselves in your position, don’t they usually start their own church? You might get some tax breaks too.
Comment by: Kathy
20 02/26/08 8:29 PM | Comment Link |Ok everyone, I am going to admit that I was probably cruder and ruder than was called for. No Helen I am not here to critique you. Just trying to figure out where the church is, I don’t see a lot of real meaningful spiritual conversations on this blog. It bothers me, I get passionate about it. I think you actually have to involve Jesus to lift Him up and give him glory. this isn’t about God at all though, its more about who is doing church wrong, so someone can write a book. Sorry Traci, you’re a doll, but I don’t do church for you, its a place for worship, not an entertainment hall. Don’t you think you are being used for the very things everyone is trying to get away from? Money, business and worldliness in the church? The church is suppose to convert the world , not the other way around. Thats what I get so undone over! Ok I will leave it there , I have said enuff already.
Comment by: Traci
21 02/26/08 8:38 PM | Comment Link |Heck, I wouldn’t know what the church is trying to get away from, and it’s about the last thing I’m concerned with.
I hope you’ll jumpstart those conversations here when you see an opportunity.
Comment by: Kathy
22 02/26/08 8:47 PM | Comment Link |Jeannie, you said everything I couldn’t come up with. Thanks Traci for being sweet.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
23 02/27/08 12:19 AM | Comment Link |Kathy you wrote
May I ask what qualifies you to judge whether this site is or isn’t about God? How are you able to make that determination so easily? Has Jesus personally informed you of this?
Comment by: Helen
24 02/27/08 5:34 AM | Comment Link |Thanks for the clarification, Kathy. I feel like it would be hypocritical of us to give people criticizing church a voice but then not listen to people who have concerns about us. We do prefer friendly respectful dialog so thanks for realizing some of your comments have been rather ’strongly worded’.
Are you part of a church which is a family in the good sense of that word?
On the whole, it didn’t work out that way for me, unless you mean ‘disfunctional family’.
In actual disfunctional families it’s generally not possible for the children to address what isn’t working because they are too powerless and they aren’t listened to.
It seems to me that the same problem could occur if we leave it to the ‘church family’ to address their own issues.
Based on my own experience and what I’ve heard from others, church leaderships don’t necessarily give their members and regular attenders a fair hearing.
Offering constructive criticism could result in a member being the black sheep forever.
I’m happy for you if you’ve found a church which is a family in a good sense of that word. As for me I don’t expect I’ll ever be interested in getting involved with a ‘church family’ again. When I was it was too unsafe. I respect your priorities but mine are that people would move towards being more psychologically safe. As long as this is not a priority in churches - and it’s my experience that it isn’t - I’m going to keep my distance.
I see dialog about church as a good thing. When you give people a voice it can be messy and not every contribution is necessarily going to be supremely helpful or constructive. But I prefer that to not giving people a voice. I think of Jesus as the friend of the outsiders and powerless people and people with no voice. I think he came to overturn human power structures which unequally distribute power. It seems to me that unfortunately many churches are power structures which unequally distribute power. I don’t think this is what Jesus wanted at all.
Jesus came to serve not to be served and so surely churches should be places which role model serving from the top down, as well as places which teach and encourage their members to serve.
(So maybe they should have something in common with restaurants, which exist to serve people :))
Comment by: Jeannie
25 02/27/08 8:13 AM | Comment Link |Helen…well said! But I don’t think I’ve ever known a totally non-dysfunctional family….that is, once I’ve really gotten to know them. Maybe I just don’t make good friends…?
And what you said about the uneven power structure of churches is very true.
Perhaps the Bible has its own version of checks and balances in the five-fold ministry? (Ephesians 4:11-13 I don’t know much about this…perhaps you do from all your Bible study and church years.
But from what I have observed…a pastor or leader can go astray and this is when God raises up a prophet to speak and put the pastor or leader back on track. Usually the prophet becomes the black sheep…rejected, thrown out, and in the old testament days stoned, sawed in half even.
Jesus talked about this a lot when he came to turn the power structure upside down (Matthew 5:12, Matthew 13:17, Matthew 23:29-37, Luke 6:23, Luke 6:26, Luke 11:47-50, Luke 13:28, Luke 13:34, Luke 24:25-27, John 6:45, John 8:52-53.)
The Bible says God is patient, not wanting anyone to perish, but for everyone to come to repentance. But after repeatedly refusing to listen to the prophets sent to them, God eventually gives people over to their own demise…whether through natural consequences, judgment, or delusion. (Psalm 4:2, Psalm 81:12, Jer 14:14, Jer 23:26, Ezek 16:27, Acts 7:42, Romans 1:24-28, 2 Thess 2:11).
Pastors and church leaders would do well to humble themselves and listen to the black sheep once in a while and either confirm or deny what these black sheep say by the Bible itself and not their own pride and delusions.
Comment by: benjamin ady
26 02/27/08 8:19 AM | Comment Link |Just wanted to chime in that I find Beth and Traci’s writing both wholesome *and* uplifting, that goes espcecially for the sex toys and sweet thighs comments. They crack me up, (and I think Jesus would have guffawed at them as well) and even the Bible says a merry heart is good for you. In fact Jesus said the guy who wrote that was kind of the ultimate wise guy.
I’m wondering, given the rather larger, more various and nuanced picture of “the kingdom” which Jesus paints in his multiple stories and sayings, if outside of *only* using John 3 you can share with us where you got the idea that that “the kindgom” is about “saving faith in Jesus Christ”? I mean I don’t see that as being the central thing about the kingdom, from J.C.’s perspective. BICBW
Comment by: Jeannie
27 02/27/08 8:24 AM | Comment Link |Oh my gosh,,,,,, what does BICBW mean…I’m feeling so socially internet inept!
Comment by: Kathy
28 02/27/08 8:42 AM | Comment Link |Benjamin, Re: the Kingdom, how else can you become a part of God’s Kingdom unless you are a born again believer? Answer: you can’t. Yes, laughter does good like a medicine, but we are also told to not engage in vulgar talk.I don’t especaily want to get hung up on that,but rather the correct telling of the word.
Comment by: Claudia
29 02/27/08 8:49 AM | Comment Link |Reminds me of one of my favorite Dennis Miller quotes, from back when Dennis Miller had a sense of humor: “I happen to know God thinks I’m friggen’ hilarious. That’s why I chose him as my God.”
Comment by: Kathy
30 02/27/08 8:52 AM | Comment Link |Helen,
I belong to a church full of people with problems and dysfunctions just like the rest of the world. If you are looking for a “perfect” church,as long as people are invloved it will never be found. Of course you can always go to Utopia with groups like Jim Jones et.al. This is why the bible says for us to STUDY and show yourself approved by God. So that we do not follow every wave and wind of new doctrine that comes along, but be rooted. I belong to a church where we all love one another DESPITE our flaws. We have our problems like everyone else, but the worship and special fellowship are unique. We are given Pastors and teachers, that do have some authority over us. Jesus called us sheep for a reason. My Pastor is very watchful that wolves do not enter the fold. Mostly though, the Holy Spirit is my teacher. I listen to Him first. Jesus received wounds in the house of his friends too. Don’t let a bad experience ruin your fellowship with him.
JIM: My final answer is: You know a tree by it’s fruit.
Comment by: Ron B.
31 02/27/08 8:55 AM | Comment Link |Casper’s question, “Is this what Jesus asked you guys to do?” haunts me, and frames this whole “rating thingy” as well as my involvement in the church biz. The truth is, we’ve not done a good job of asking the question for ourselves. We haven’t “policed” our own organization. Jesus used harsh, humorous, and biting words and pictures to call the religious professionals of his day to account. Beth and Traci, Jim and Casper, and all the voices here at ChurchRater provide the same assesment for those who are conducting business in the name of God.
Comment by: Helen
32 02/27/08 8:56 AM | Comment Link |Jeannie, BICBW is “But I Could Be Wrong” - it’s an Off The Map acronym we use sometimes in order to show our views aren’t infallible.
Comment by: Kathy
33 02/27/08 8:59 AM | Comment Link |Claudia, rich. He chooses us , we do not chose him.
Comment by: Traci
34 02/27/08 9:13 AM | Comment Link |I wonder why God doesn’t choose people in Yemen, Turkey, Morocco, and other Muslim countries.
U!S!A! U!S!A!
Comment by: Kathy
35 02/27/08 9:27 AM | Comment Link |Traci. He does, you just don’t hear a lot about it, because Christians there know all about persecution. The Muslims cut their heads off if they leave the Muslim faith. Most Christians there are underground. Makes all this seem trivial huh?
Comment by: Traci
36 02/27/08 9:44 AM | Comment Link |If only he would choose the Muslims, too.
Comment by: Kathy
37 02/27/08 9:49 AM | Comment Link |Traci, I have read a lot of stories from Muslims where Jesus has appeared to them in a dream or vision. They have accepted Him as their Savior too. So He is reaching them too. God loves everyone Traci, not just Gentiles in the US. If you are not connected in the church then you most likely won’t hear these stories. But rest assured, it is happening.
Comment by: Claudia
38 02/27/08 9:53 AM | Comment Link |Makes all this seem necessary, actually. Fundamentalist theocracies also tend to have pretty harsh penalties for vulgarity, from what I understand. Open–if sometimes uncomfortable–forums like this one should be celebrated for really holding the line against this kind of tendency in our own culture.
Bring on the swearing and the dissent!
Comment by: Helen
39 02/27/08 10:22 AM | Comment Link |Kathy wrote:
I’m happy for you, Kathy. I wasn’t looking for a perfect church - I was looking for one like this. What I found was people who tried to control me without understanding me.
I don’t mind being under authority - I am in various ways - but I’m no longer willing to be under the authority of people who exercise it in ways I found to be [psychologically] unsafe.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
40 02/27/08 10:27 AM | Comment Link |Thanks for the clarification Kathy
Traci - sorry you don’t get to hear the stories all of us Christian insiders get to hear.
I’m sure Kathy’s explanation clears it all up for you.
All you have to do it just take her word for it - what could be simpler than that?
Comment by: Jeannie
41 02/27/08 10:28 AM | Comment Link |Benjamin, you ask a very good question about where this description of the kingdom is in the Bible besides John 3.
I think of Luke 24:25 where Jesus said, “…How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!.” I think also of John 5:46-47, where Jesus said, “If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”
My right brain is working faster than my left brain right now, so I will answer you from that perspective as best I can…. :) I’ll try to do one better than simply quoting John 3…I’m going to answer you from the scriptures as a whole.
All throughout the old testament, the prophets prophesied about the coming Messiah who would come and judge the world setting up a literal physical kingdom on earth.
The disciples, who for the most part were unlearned everyday folks, as well as many of the poor held great hope in this promise coming from the prophets. They hoped beyond what their eyes could see…they hoped with their whole hearts.
Jesus told them the kingdom was among them. Though their eyes saw Roman occupation and oppression by the religious elite, they believed Jesus anyway while still holding to their hope that he was the One the prophets spoke of. Even the disciples questioned Jesus about when he would set up his literal physical kingdom, the one that was to come at the end of the age. If the disciples had been wrong on their view of this, Jesus would have corrected them then and there. Instead, he told them no one knows when this will happen. But he urged them to hold onto their hope and take heed that no man deceive them.
I believe many have been deceived, as Jesus warned, into discarding this hope in the coming kingdom…the hope the Bible and the prophets spoke of. Instead people think this world and everyone in it is the kingdom.
Jesus said He is the Narrow Gate and few find it..he said He is the Way, the Truth and the Life, that no man comes to the Father but by Him. He called himself the Resurrection and the Life (whoever believes in Him though he were dead, yet shall he live)….He calls himself the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. He repeatedly asked others who(m?) they thought he was. This question demonstrates that personal belief was integral entering the kingdom. (See Matthew 21:32 where Jesus said those who believed and repented would enter the kingdom of heaven first). (See also Mark 16:16 where Jesus himself said, “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned). (See also Luke 8:12 where Jesus explains in a parable, “Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.”)
Great judgments come before the kingdom. This is why we are so fortunate that according to Daniel 9, the Messiah comes twice. Jesus’ first coming set up an age of grace whereby we can all enter the kingdom freely. But he is coming again as the Jews expected him to…as a conquering king. I’m glad he didn’t do that the first time, because now we all have a chance to believe and be saved before he comes back to rule with a rod of iron. (Rev 2:27, Rev 12:5, Rev 19:15)
He said if we love him, we will keep his commandments. The rod of iron will not be bad for those who love him. I love my children and they rule me with a rod of iron of sorts…I must attend to their every need….I have given up many things I like to do to care for them. But I love them and do what they ask of me (ok maybe not marshmallows for breakfast). I attend to them out of my love for them.
Comment by: benjamin ady
42 02/27/08 10:28 AM | Comment Link |…
Notes from Jesus about becoming part of the Kingdom of God.
*The poor get in (we’re talking *poor*–thinking the 1 billion people on the planet who live on $1/day or less).
*The rich hardly get in.
*It’s *difficult* to get in.
*Greatness and authority are flipped on their head–those who serve the most are more likely to be in.
*People who get persecuted for righteousness are in.
*The KOG has a viral growth pattern–it starts super tiny, practically invisible, and … become pervasive.
*A bunch of people mistakenly think they’re in.
*The KOG is very near
*Outsiders get in, while insiders don’t.
*Gotta be childlike
A lot of Christians believe that many Muslims (for instance) are in on the KOG. Why shouldn’t they be in? Some of the things Jesus said and did indicating who was and wasn’t in were very surprising to the religious leaders of his day, who all thought they and htey only were in. Doesn’t this kind of lead one to believe that that’s probably still the case–that insiders to Christianity would be (and will be) rather surprised by Jesus’ take on who’s in and who’s not? Jesus himself indicates that this will be the case.
I’m curious about the vulgar thing. Does that mean we can’t talk about sex? It seems to me that we consider things vulgar that J.C. would just laugh at, because we are so … fakely “clean”/remvoved from daily realities like sex and death which are intricately bound up in things like how we get our food, for instance. I mean we *eat* everyday. But we don’t breed the animals, milk them, slaughter them, etc. etc. I think vulgarity is culturally defined, and American Christianity defines it far too tightly for the most part. BICBW.
Comment by: Jeannie
43 02/27/08 10:36 AM | Comment Link |Jim,
Don’t be so hard on Kathy. Maybe she rubs you the wrong way, but she’s still a sister in Christ.
Helen, thanks for the clarification…my views may be fallible but the Bible is infallible. How’s that for a brain teaser…circular….alpha omega…hmmm?
Traci… see http://isaalmasih.net/isa/dreamsofisa.html
where Jesus chooses muslims. He is appearing to people all over the middle east in dreams as a man in white…he tells them who he is and leads them to Christians who give them Bibles and teach them.
Comment by: Kathy
44 02/27/08 10:37 AM | Comment Link |Benjamin, I have to think about your other comments before responding, the vulgar thing could be “just me” . Discussing sex is not vulgar, its the context I think. I don’t try to be fakely clean, I just try to be clean is all. I fail a lot, because right now I really want to tell Jim to Kiss my !@@@# So see, I am real too.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
45 02/27/08 10:50 AM | Comment Link |Kathy - thanks for keepinp it real but I wont be able to help you with that ( I do appreciate your humor however :-)
Jeannie - Since you are such a serious student of the word I think it would help all of us if you prefaced your long explanation with “According to the Dispensationalist Doctrine I have been taught - and then add your comments. I’m certain you know that this interpretation is a relatively new (and quite complex) way of reading scripture
Comment by: Kathy
46 02/27/08 11:00 AM | Comment Link |Jim, It is quite obvious that anyone that comes in here with the truth of the word, you immediatley go on the defensive. I don’t understand a pastor (or so you say)that will not defend the faith. I guess I have become your thorn in the flesh because I do not agree, or slobber all over your book and blog. You can try to discredit me as much as you like, its your website. Pretty pathetic when I am treated better by an unbeleiver than by a so called Christian brother. (I use that only as an example, you are not a brother in the faith)I didnt say anything to Traci to deserve those remarks. whats wrong? the fundies messin’ up your idealism?
Comment by: Jeannie
47 02/27/08 11:04 AM | Comment Link |It seems like the prophets, Paul and the disciples held to this view. They’re not new. But the church fathers that came after them and remade it are rather the new ones. So the non-dispensationalist view isn’t really the traditional old view…it’s only relatively old. tee hee
This is only my plain out-of-the-loop reading of the Bible. I’m currently trying to put it all together as a church outsider. Seems many of the church insiders disagree with a plain reading of the scriptures. I’m not a serious student of the Word. I don’t go to church, I didn’t go to a seminary, I don’t go to Christian conventions etc. I just love the Word and read it plainly and put all my hope what it says that I can understand without “proper” training…probably just reading the old testament law and prophets kinda like the unlearned disciples did :)
Comment by: Beth Bates
48 02/27/08 11:07 AM | Comment Link |Traci just dropped by my house with a spankin’ new, SIGNED copy of her freshly published book “BBQ Sauces, Rubs & Marinades for DUMMIES.”
She tenderly, powerfully edified me with her book and the note of heart-felt encouragement tucked inside its pages. Her friendship continues to edify me, repeatedly driving me back to Scripture and sending me to my knees in prayers of thanksgiving.
(The idea that we’re making money off this blog is hilariously ludicrous to us - we paid our travel expenses to OR and so far have lost money on this assignment. I might as well make a little plug for her little BBQ guide. Maybe she’ll break even in ‘08. )
Comment by: Kathy
49 02/27/08 11:14 AM | Comment Link |Beth,
Wow I am so very impressed!
Comment by: Helen
50 02/27/08 11:17 AM | Comment Link |Beth we really appreciate how you and Traci have been sharing your visits with us on this blog. I hope it somehow helps you turn them into a book. Or at least doesn’t hinder that happening.
And I hope Traci’s BBQ guide is a bestseller!
Comment by: benjamin ady
51 02/27/08 11:29 AM | Comment Link |… Kathy you made me crack up. Thankyou. I’m picturing Jim swimming in a bit vat of drool from his millions of admirers, with copies of Jim and Caspar etc. bobbing in the froth (that vulgar enough for you? =)
I hope it won’t be out of line for me to point out that to the best of my knowledge, Jim/Caspar haven’t yet seen a single dime from book sale royalties (something about not enough copies sold yet or something).
When you say “The truth of the word”, are you thinking about that in modern terms–a sort of overarching, all pervavise, a-priori truth which you feel you have a bit of a bead on? I’m wondering what you might be referring to when you speak of Jim’s “defensiveness”. Seems to me that maybe (to quote from recent presidential debates) you and he have a genuine policy difference on truth. I know for me, for instance, I used to take the modern view on truth, but now I take more of a pomo view, and it works a lot better for me–which is to say I’m a much happier and more well-adjusted person now than I was then. And I’m kinder to people than I used to be. I used to be a real asshole actually. If you knew me then, and got to know me now, I think even you would probably agree I’m a somewhat improved version.
Comment by: benjamin ady
52 02/27/08 11:35 AM | Comment Link |Sorry but can’t leave this alone. I mean if we’re going to sink into defining people groups by the worst among them rather than by the best, then I think we also have to point out that Christians torture, shoot, illegally imprison without trial, and bomb Muslims, not to mention illegally invading a leading Muslim nation on false premises, unleashing a horrifying bloodbath, and leaving the Muslims’ nations *littered* with unexploded cluster bomblets which shall hang out and kill small Muslim children for decades to come.
Comment by: Helen
53 02/27/08 11:36 AM | Comment Link |Benjamin I didn’t know the former version of you - I do like the current one!
Comment by: Traci
54 02/27/08 11:43 AM | Comment Link |God sure does make some interesting choices.
Comment by: Jeannie
55 02/27/08 11:48 AM | Comment Link |Am I an a-hole because I’m not pomo?
Comment by: Kathy
56 02/27/08 11:51 AM | Comment Link |Benjamin, How horribly vulgar of you! ;)
I am only speaking the truth that has exisited for 2 thousand years, it is not modern, but it is truth. “This is the church of the Living God, which is the pillar and foundation of the tuth” I Tim 3:15/ Truth is truth regardless of ones belief in it. What is the “modern view” of truth? I too am a better version of what I was,(guess you must really be wondering by now what kind of hellyan I was in my BC days!)but it was not because of anything I did. I am a happy person too, Jim just pisses me off the way he comes at me.
Comment by: Helen
57 02/27/08 11:54 AM | Comment Link |Jeannie, no…I’m sure Benjamin wasn’t meaning to say everyone who isn’t pomo is an asshole.
Comment by: Kathy
58 02/27/08 12:00 PM | Comment Link |Benjamin.
You spun that comment to make it your retribute. I was not sinking into defining people groups, I am only stating a fact! You do not leave the Muslim faith. Thats no “view” on truth, thats truth!
Comment by: benjamin ady
59 02/27/08 12:01 PM | Comment Link |Jeannie
not at all. Actually, … I guess it’s not very kind to refer to people as assholes, and I shouldn’t have done it, even to myself. Sorry.
Comment by: Helen
60 02/27/08 12:03 PM | Comment Link |Benjamin, yes, stop the cycle of self-abuse!
Comment by: Jeannie
61 02/27/08 12:06 PM | Comment Link |Makes you wonder about the scripture in Revelation 20:4.
“And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”
If God chooses lots of people out of the Muslim areas of the world, will this be their end?
Comment by: Helen
62 02/27/08 12:08 PM | Comment Link |Kathy, feel free to ignore Jim if he annoys you.
He really was a pastor - you can read about his life here (free) in the intro of Jim and Casper go to Church
Comment by: Kathy
63 02/27/08 12:10 PM | Comment Link |Benjamin I just found out what “pomo” is and I ain’t!
Comment by: benjamin ady
64 02/27/08 12:12 PM | Comment Link |Kathy
I’m sorry if I span your comment (god doesn’t that sound wierd–”span”? but it’s right)
(picturing taking my laptop, with your comment on screen, and … spinning it =)
okay, so … share a story with us. about how someone left the Muslim faith, and then got their head cut off. I don’t doubt that has happened. And then I can respond in a couple of ways. I can share a particular story about a particular Christian, for instance, who tortured Muslims at Abu Ghraib. And we can continue on the downward spiral.
Or I could respond with a beautiful story about a lady I met last year who is both a Christian priest and a Muslim, and who is actively practicing both religions with the fully aware help of spiritual leaders in both religions. And then you can perhaps find and share a beautiful story about a Muslim parent whose child became a Christian when they grew up and how they have worked that through and have a deeper more beautiful relationship than before. And we can explore radiating possibilities.
Which path shall we choose?
Comment by: Jeannie
65 02/27/08 12:13 PM | Comment Link |Thanks Benjamin…
Thanks Kathy for keepin’ it real. Away with false piety.
Thanks Jim for hangin’ in there. Please share more :)
Thanks Helen…you are a voice of reason.
Thanks Traci for your wit :) Did you look at the link? What are your thoughts? I think it’s pretty interesting.
Sorry if I left anyone out of my “You’re not an asshole” acceptance speech. You like me, you really like me!!!!
Do any of us have anything else to do today?????
Comment by: benjamin ady
66 02/27/08 12:14 PM | Comment Link |Ahhhh! the link is only supposed to be attached to the “it’s right”. Oh well. Maybe Helen can fix it.
Comment by: Kathy
67 02/27/08 12:14 PM | Comment Link |Helen, Thanks, I read his book, (it was forced on us)but I probably skipped the intro and went straight for the meat.
Comment by: Helen
68 02/27/08 12:19 PM | Comment Link |Benjamin: fixed :)
Kathy, if I may ask - who forced the book on you? Did they like it themselves (I assume so or they wouldn’t have pushed you to read it)
Having a book forced on me would annoy me (not that I’m saying that’s the only reason you dislike it - I realize it’s not)
Comment by: Jeannie
69 02/27/08 12:19 PM | Comment Link |Benjamin,
Your scenario sounds nice, but Jesus didn’t really deliver the “I’m ok, you’re ok” message. …since we’re trying to center this discussion around churches and the kingdom based on Jesus’ words? Any comments on Rev 20:4?
I do like the idea of looking at the positive side of things, but since I’m a modernist I am compelled to throw in the Truth :)
Comment by: benjamin ady
70 02/27/08 12:19 PM | Comment Link |Kathy,
yeah–kind of figured you weren’t. That’s kewl. Most people, I guess, still aren’t. That’s a demographic that is rather likely to change over the next decades, in light of current transitions. =) Just as everybody pretty much switched to modernism over the last centuries, at least in the “west”)
Glad I was able to lead you to at least learn the word/begin being introduced to the idea. I suspect it will grow on you =) (Come into the liiiiiight =) Hehe =)
Comment by: Helen
71 02/27/08 12:28 PM | Comment Link |Jeannie, what does this mean?
“Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom.”
Comment by: Kathy
72 02/27/08 12:31 PM | Comment Link |I can’t share a story, he didn’t live to tell about it. I know there are many and I will do my reasearch and get back to you. Benjamin be realistic, you cannot be a Christian Priest and a Muslim too! you will hate the one and love the other. If Jesus is your Lord, there are no others. I don’t want to get into a spitting contest over who is the most evil or does the worst things under the guise of religion. The catholics did horrible things too, hence “reformation”. War brings the worst out in all of us. Including Ahbu Grhaib, the Holocaust, Viet Nam, whatever. As bad as that is, it is part of real down in the dirt life. Like airplanes flying into NYC. Nice guys huh? What if we had done nothing in WWII? Surely you are not naive enough to think that the same things didn’t go on then too? I don’t care if they tortured someone or not, the end result was I grew up in a safe country and so did my kids, I am not so sure about my grands though.
Comment by: Jeannie
73 02/27/08 12:35 PM | Comment Link |Post-modernism is this generation’s “angel of light.” 2 Corinthians 11:14 Telling us (contrary to Jesus’ own words) we don’t have to believe to be saved thereby robbing an entire generation of salvation. But Jesus said “when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?” Luke 18:8
What is faith? The substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1
Comment by: Kathy
74 02/27/08 12:46 PM | Comment Link |Benjamin, I will never be pomo, never never never. Even if I lived to be 175 years old. As far as I can tell the pomo church is only set up to serve man and not God. Not that I want to put you in a self serving category but you said you are no longer a Christian, so don’t be offended.
Helen, It was recommended reading for a meeting at GCC, my husband attended and listened to Jim, I stayed away. Probably a good thing we may have had a knock down dragout right in the middle of the sanctuary! ; ) Seriously though,I would have challeneged him right there in front of God and the Pastor with no fear.
Comment by: Kathy
75 02/27/08 12:48 PM | Comment Link |Jeannie, right on!
Comment by: Claudia
76 02/27/08 12:57 PM | Comment Link |Kathy, can you help me reconcile these two parts of your post:
It wasn’t safe here that day.
Comment by: Kathy
77 02/27/08 1:11 PM | Comment Link |One has nothing to do with the other. Re-read the post
Comment by: Helen
78 02/27/08 1:13 PM | Comment Link |Thanks Kathy. So does your husband go to GCC and you go elsewhere or did you both change churches since then? Does your husband like the book more than you do?
I don’t doubt that you wouldn’t have been afraid to share what you thought with Jim in that meeting :). I don’t think it would have led to a fight though - he would have agreed to disagree I expect.
Comment by: Helen
79 02/27/08 1:17 PM | Comment Link |(there’s a video of that GCC interview with Jim and talk by Jim online btw - it’s part 2 of the November 2007 video)
Comment by: Kathy
80 02/27/08 1:28 PM | Comment Link |Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Somewhere back there we were talking about you must be born again to enter the kingdom and you asked me where it said that. John 3, I also refer you to Luke 18, 19, 21 and 22.
Comment by: Claudia
81 02/27/08 1:29 PM | Comment Link |Oh, I think I see–you’re saying that it’s become unsafe SINCE you grew up? With that reading, though, I lose track of causality between torture and our national security. Are you saying torture kept us safe during your/your kids’ childhoods, then we stopped and things got unsafe?
Comment by: Helen
82 02/27/08 1:35 PM | Comment Link |Hey Traci’s book is on Amazon - awesome!
Comment by: Beth Bates
83 02/27/08 1:35 PM | Comment Link |Kathy, Tim Ayers does an excellent job explaining the context and meaning of the “born again” passage.
Comment by: Kathy
84 02/27/08 1:36 PM | Comment Link |Helen,
Neither of us go there anymore. (Did for 7 years) No , he did not agree with the book either, although he is a psych major so he had an easier time understanding the purpose. I understand the purpose too, I just dont agree with the method. Plus I am much more vocal than he is, he tends to walk away quietly , I go kicking and screaming all the way. Its the Irish in me blood. I was kidding abt the fight, I am sure Jim would have been a gentleman (in front of the pastor);) and I would have also been on my best “I strongly disagree with you” behavour as well.
Thanks for the link I will watch it
Comment by: Kathy
85 02/27/08 1:45 PM | Comment Link |Claudia, What I said was, that I am sure there was torture going on with our enemies in WWII as well as there supposedly is in Abhu Graib today. And that I didn’t care because the end result was that the USA won that war(WWII) and I grew up in a safe country. Not becasue of torture, but because we won, at all costs no matter what it took. Down and dirty real life. Try reading it again with that in mind.
Comment by: Kathy
86 02/27/08 1:46 PM | Comment Link |Beth,,,what passage?
Comment by: Claudia
87 02/27/08 2:05 PM | Comment Link |Thanks, Kathy, for clarifying. I think we’re starting from such diametrically opposed sets of assumptions that I’m just struggling to follow. For what it’s worth, here are the assumptions I’m working with:
1. The god that Christians worship and the god the Muslims worship are the same god–I don’t think that Jehovah and Allah are duking it out in the celestial sphere.
2. Torture results in flawed intelligence and fosters the type of rabid fundamentalism that allows people to dehumanize the U.S. to the point that it seems the moral thing to do to oppose us–no matter what it takes.
3. Even if torture were a productive method of intelligence-gathering, I’d have a problem with it, based on empathy rather than a religious code. Not that I’m not a ridiculously violent person–I’m an Irish gal myself–but I could only bring myself to, say, pistol whip somebody who’d done something directly to me or my loved ones. Oliver Cromwell, for instance.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
88 02/27/08 3:02 PM | Comment Link |I want to thank Beth and Traci for carrying on the tradition of spiritual curiosity.
You have recieved nothing monetarily for this (although I will do my best to help get your work published :-)
Congratulations to Traci for her new book - I will go to the store and buy a copy in her honor and give it to my son Josh who recently made the local news for his entreprenurial adventure called Skillet - Street Bistro
Comment by: Kathy
89 02/27/08 3:10 PM | Comment Link |I try not to assume anything but deal with facts and truth. No God is not duking it out with Allah, since Allah does not exist in the first place, but even if he did, Our God is the only true God. The children of Abraham and Hagar used to worship God Jehova, I don’t know what went wrong, but Jehova’s name is not allah. #2 and 3,,,hmmm Not sure on 2, agree somewhat with 3 but apparantly waterboarding works. although I wouldnt want it done to me or anyone I love, guess you can fault me for not loving my enemies. As long as my loved ones are safe, I don’t care what they do to terrorists. You can’t reason with them or have a “conversation”. Just my own thoughts, not doctrine nor will I try to quantify it as such.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
90 02/27/08 3:19 PM | Comment Link |Benjamin
Kathy is very representative of how many people in the mid west feel about God being on our side/not on theirs and comparing our best with their worst etc.
Her clear articulation of her rationale is very helpful if you expect to interact with people from that region.
Comment by: Beth Bates
91 02/27/08 3:54 PM | Comment Link |Get. Me. Out. Of. Here!
Comment by: Jeannie
92 02/27/08 4:21 PM | Comment Link |Ahem, Jim….did you just stereotype?
Comment by: Jeannie
93 02/27/08 4:35 PM | Comment Link |Jim,
I’m totally lost here. Maybe I’ve assumed something about you wrongly? What are you standing for? It’s clear Kathy is attempting to stand for the one true God of the Bible….but your comments totally confuse me. Are you a believer or not? Why do you care what non-believers say about church…just to build bigger churches or to build a kingdom of non-believers? Really, I am totally confused. Please help me….I’m starting to feel like Beth.
Kathy, I commend you for your candor. Keep standing for the God of the Bible.
Matt 5:11-12 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.” Luke 6:26 “Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for that is how their fathers treated the false prophets.” Mark 8:38 “If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”
Comment by: Kathy
94 02/27/08 4:40 PM | Comment Link |Jim, HELLO????? This is not MARS and I am not an alien. The mindset of the midwest?? Come on Jim you can do better than that to disqualify me. So now you are sterotyping and stirring discrimination against all midwestern blue eyed people? It’s okay Beth, you will wake up soon. What exactly he is talking about I have no clue!???
Comment by: Helen
95 02/27/08 5:13 PM | Comment Link |Jim is the Midwest different from the rest of the US (in this regard), in your experience?
Comment by: Claudia
96 02/27/08 5:14 PM | Comment Link |No, I think it was someone else who implied all Muslims are decapitation-mad fundamentalists…oh, wait, you mean stereotyping midwestern blue-eyed people? Yes, that’s a group that’s been held down for far too long in this country. Shame on you, Jim! Though I think I missed the “blue-eyed” portion of your post?
Comment by: Jim Henderson
97 02/27/08 5:44 PM | Comment Link |Apologies. I was wrong to stereotype.
Comment by: Helen
98 02/27/08 5:58 PM | Comment Link |Thanks Jim.
Comment by: Jeannie
99 02/27/08 6:12 PM | Comment Link |Jim, thanks….really. I was angry…maybe that was wrong…your apology dissipated my anger.
I’m still confused. I read the intro to your book and kinda understand a little more where you are coming from. But I can’t wrap my mind around it…evangelizing by not evangelizing. Believing, BICBW defies logic.
I don’t buy the whole pomo thing.
I’m still confused that you don’t encourage Kathy as a fellow believer, especially if you aren’t worried about her turning the non-believers off? round and round the carousel of confusion I go…..
sorry :(
Comment by: Beth Bates
100 02/27/08 6:12 PM | Comment Link |Jeannie said
I was responding to Jim’s comment to Benjamin about the Midwestern mindset.
Comment by: benjamin ady
101 02/27/08 6:26 PM | Comment Link |I want to touch on the “name of God” thing. Isn’t it true that “Jehovah” is an anglicization of Hebrew Word? Isn’t it true that “The Word” is a English translation of a Greek spiritual concept (the Greek word which is anglicized “LOGOS”) which was appropriated by John for his own purposes?
… Names of God exist in *languages*. Which means that English speakers call “God” “God”, while spanish speaker call him “Dios” and French speakers call him “Diex” and Arabic speakers call him an Arabic word which is anglicized “Allah”.
Even Arabic Christians, of whom there are *many*, use this Arabic name for the person that both they and English speaking Christians are worshipping–the one English speaking Christians call God.
So we are talking about two different arguments here. One is about language. And the second is about the nature of whoever we are talking about. Many Muslims, and many Christians, would agree that the God the Muslims worship and the God the Christians worship is the same person. Many others would disagree, of course. But it seems to me that … the *best* of people from both camps would be more than willing to acknowledge such a possibility, while the *worst* of people from both camps, the ones who want to torture and bomb and hurt and annihilate “the other”, would strongly argue *against* such a possibility.
Am I making any sense?
BICBW.
Comment by: Helen
102 02/27/08 6:40 PM | Comment Link |Jeannie wrote:
Jeannie, it’s ‘don’t evangelize in traditional ways’ not ‘don’t evangelize’ (that’s why we have a site called Doable Evangelism). This makes sense if you go listen to people who aren’t Christians and find out how much they dislike being the targets of traditional evangelism.
Even the Bible says “be ready to give an answer” - which means someone asked a question - but in traditional evangelism Christians are not taught to wait until asked. They learn all sorts of ways to manipulate the conversation. People who aren’t Christians don’t appreciate this.
It’s faith - if you believe and you couldn’t be wrong, there’s no faith in that.
Comment by: benjamin ady
103 02/27/08 7:02 PM | Comment Link |Kathy,
so you are openly saying you are not a Christ follower, at least on this point? I want to so strongly say thankyou for being totally open and upfront about that. You rock. The funny thing is, I *am* a Christ follower on this point, even though I’m *not* a Christian. Funny world, huh?
Comment by: Kathy
104 02/27/08 7:25 PM | Comment Link |I am ignoring the shallow apology. Thanks Jeannie for the uplifiting.
Benjamin. I should have said Yaweh and not Jehova, sorry my mistake, there are nine compound names of God.(Jehova Jirah, Jehova Nissi etc.) Have you never heard the Muslims say “Allah is god and his prophet is Muhammad” or “Allah is god and he has no son.”? Allah is not the god of the bible, I don’t care how many christians or muslims say that. They are either ignorant of their own religion or they and have been decieved. Benjamin , there is much more to the Living God than languages, it is not the language that is the barrier. I will study some of what you wrote to see if I can be more concise… Claudia, you put words in my mouth by adding ALL. And since when have Muslims been discrimintaed against? Do you not realize that they seek to destroy the jews again? Do we have to wait until another Holocaust is upon us to understand the dangerous times we are living in? Do you even know how many Muslims are in the world? They do not suffer from discrimination.
Comment by: Kathy
105 02/27/08 7:39 PM | Comment Link |Benjamin, I am saying honestly and openly that we have enemies and I do not love them. That does not make me a non follower. It means I am short on the commandment to love your enemies and I dont know what to do with that. It is easier to love a domestic enemy i.e a co-worker who is trying to destroy your career, another woman in the middle of your marriage, etc. But when I see enemies killing our boys and 3 thousand innocent Americans, I get angry. And please don’t come back to me with “what about what we have done over there” I do not care. Do I love my country that much? You betcha and I love my freedom and if we intend to keep it, then keep dropping those bombs. That is not a midwest mindset, its more than half of the American people mindset. We are in a war, not pretty. We need to win it. So there is enough said there for all of you to crucify me. But hey, at least its active and lively in here. : )
Comment by: benjamin ady
106 02/27/08 7:52 PM | Comment Link |Kathy
I think you nailed it here. I think that’s where the “difficult” part of getting into the KOG comes in.
Again, I applaud you for being up front about loving your country more than Jesus. Many Christians with whom I’ve interacted have not been willing to be so up front about these things. I think it creates space for us to converse when we are both being totally honest about where we are coming from. You rock.
I disagree with you about the “more than half of the people in America think this way”. I think it’s definitely less than half. Only slightly less, but there it is.
Comment by: benjamin ady
107 02/27/08 7:55 PM | Comment Link |By the way, so are you saying that in your not so humble opinion all the tens of thousands of arabic speaking christians in the world should stop calling the God they worship, the father of Jesus, by the name they’ve used for him for centuries: “Allah”, and switch to some name which you think more appropriate?
Comment by: Helen
108 02/27/08 7:58 PM | Comment Link |Kathy, how can you tell Jim’s apology was shallow? Please tell me then I’m fine with you returning to ignoring it if you like :).
Even though they are hitting innocent civilians?
Why is it not ok for enemies to kill innocent Americans but it’s ok for us to do it to them?
Comment by: Traci
109 02/27/08 8:10 PM | Comment Link |Beth must be tremendously reassured.
I am tremendously unsettled. But I’m even more interested in this:
How. Do. You. Know?
Comment by: Kathy
110 02/27/08 8:28 PM | Comment Link |WHOA HOSS !! I did not say that I loved my country more than I loved Jesus, who are you puttin on the spin here? and don’t try to patronize me either.I love God and country, but I do not love America more than Christ, that is only what you want to think I believe. Sheesh Benjamin! Get real yourself. For the very last time, Muslims do not worship the Father of the Son Jesus Christ. I don’t care what they call him he is not my God or the God of the OLD and NEW testament. I am not talking about ARABIC speaking CHRISTIANS, I am talking about MUSLIMS, do you not know the difference? I am beating my head against my desk…
Comment by: Missy Welsch
111 02/27/08 8:30 PM | Comment Link |I am so sorry. This reminds me a little of a couple of Jr. High kids. Catty, caustic, embarrassing. Back to discourse a little less personal…puuuuuhhhleeeasse.
Comment by: Jeannie
112 02/27/08 8:32 PM | Comment Link |Perhaps Peter said BICBW when he denied Jesus, but probably not when they were about to crucify him upside down. I don’t think Abraham said BICBW as he walked Isaac up the mountain to sacrifice him. I don’t think any of the apostles thought BICBW as they went to their horrendous deaths for the faith. Elijah didn’t think BICBW when he called asked the offering to be soaked in water before he called fire down from heaven to consume it. Faith is not acknowledging you may be wrong about something you believe…that’s doubt. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1
James 4:8 …”purify your hearts, you double-minded.” Psalm 119:113-120, James 1:6-8 “he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; 8he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does.”
Helen, I too have been on the receiving end of unsolicited evangelism. You guys might get a kick out of this story….
A few days after 9-11 2 guys in suits with pamphlets came knocking on my door. They said that in light of the shocking events if 9-11, people probably have a lot of questions and need to talk. To that, I swung my door open wide and said, “People might have questions, but I have the answer….Jesus. Come on in, let’s talk!” The guys were stupefied and stumbled over each other to get away from me. What’s up with that??? I still laugh when I think of it.
BTW it works well with telemarketers…ooh that’s bad, but it does.
Comment by: Kathy
113 02/27/08 8:36 PM | Comment Link |Helen, I thought it was shallow because he only apologized for stereotyping. He did not apolgize for what he said about me, I have decided he is demon possessed. ;)
Traci. I know because the bible tells me so. Some of us have a real belief system and know what we stand for. Some people in here cannot deal with that.
Comment by: Claudia
114 02/27/08 8:38 PM | Comment Link |Missy, I think you must’ve gone to a much nicer jr. high than I did–in all seriousness, I’ve been impressed at how elevated most of the discourse in this thread has been. :)
Comment by: Jim Henderson
115 02/27/08 8:43 PM | Comment Link |Dialog or Debate? - which is this sounding like to you?
When we got to this place on Ebay Atheist we invented the discussion board.
What do you think Helen?
It feels to me as if any new learning that was going to take place has already happened.
But since I am not “The Decider” I am happy to keep the playground open
Comment by: Helen
116 02/27/08 8:44 PM | Comment Link |Kathy wrote:
Maybe so :)
Comment by: Jim Henderson
117 02/27/08 8:45 PM | Comment Link |Kathy
Thank you for hanging in there with all of us pomo(what does that stand for anyway?) types.
You have been very interesting to interact with.
Your passion is palpable
Comment by: Traci
118 02/27/08 8:45 PM | Comment Link |And how do you know that it’s the bible, not the Koran (or Nietzsche, for that matter) that is right?
Comment by: Jim Henderson
119 02/27/08 8:47 PM | Comment Link |We need that Seinfeld clip where the pastor does the demon impersonation
I do feel kind of demon posessed at times :-)
Comment by: benjamin ady
120 02/27/08 8:49 PM | Comment Link |Kathy,
Sorry if I misunderstood you. What I thougth you said was “I’m fine for us to torture people, as long as me and mine are safe, and I realize that’s not loving your enemies, and I realize Jesus told me to love my enemies” and then went on to specify that by “me and mine” you pretty much meant Americans, and that you love America.
So which point did I get wrong? Or are all the points correct, but I’m just wrong in connecting them to mean that you love America more than Jesus?
And by the way, I’m even talking about the argument about whether Muslims and Christians worship the same God, which is an argument that can be made (And indeed lots of Christians and Muslims get along just fine with each other, and *do* believe they worship the same God, although they realize they differ on certain points of doctrine.). I’m just saying that the Arabic name for the Christian God is Allah. Allah, God, Jehovah, Yahweh, what have you, are not somehow different people, from a Christian perspective. Just as English speaking Christians worship God, Arabic speaking Christians worship Allah. Why is that such a problem?
Comment by: benjamin ady
121 02/27/08 8:52 PM | Comment Link |Kathy
Sorry, I was just going off of what you said back on 104
Because he is indeed the God of the Bible translated into Arabic.
Comment by: Helen
122 02/27/08 8:54 PM | Comment Link |Jim I think some dialog and learning is happening here.
Admittedly I’m ever the optimist regarding those two things - I’m always hoping they’re happening.
They’re often messily mixed in with other stuff like some debate.
Comment by: Jeannie
123 02/27/08 8:55 PM | Comment Link |I’m starting to feel like Jack Handy here….Am I the only one who thinks what I’ve shared is deep and contributes to dialog? Or does my unmoveable nature make me a debater and stifle conversation?
I’m gonna sign off. I like you guys, and while it may change the rules, it doesn’t change what I believe “believe” is.
Please don’t demonize the act of believing simply because some people have believed wrong bad things that led them to do horrible atrocities. Some people believe good things like…killing is bad, don’t do it..ever, love your enemy, give your stuff away to the poor, don’t be greedy, don’t take things that don’t belong to you, don’t devalue people…etc. It’s good to wholeheartedly believe good things without any doubts in your heart whatsoever.
Now I’m going to run for Miss America. The blonde has spoken. Goodnight.
Comment by: benjamin ady
124 02/27/08 8:58 PM | Comment Link |I mean this is always an interesting problem for Christian missionaries to a previously “unreached” culture. Do we use the local name for God, with all it’s perhaps attendant baggage with which we disagree? Or do we use some sort of transliteration into the local language?
Decisions have been made both directions, with, I suppose, various benefits and fallouts.
My sense is that overall Muslims have a lot more *respect* for and understanding of Christianity than vice versa. Muslims call Jews and Christians “people of the book”, and as such they get a sort of special status. Christianity doesn’t really seem to have any such special regard for Islam. Muslims look up Jesus Christ and are interested to follow his teachings, whereas Christians by and large don’t really look up to Mohammed. I think that’s very sad. As an ex-Christian, I’m taking steps to become a peacemaker (and thus, according to Jesus, to get to be called “Child of God”), but taking some time to begin to learn little about the good sides and good things within Islam. I’m hoping to start learning ARabic this summer. =)
Comment by: benjamin ady
125 02/27/08 9:02 PM | Comment Link |The feeling is mutual =) I hope you win the Miss America thing. =)
Comment by: Jim Henderson
126 02/27/08 9:02 PM | Comment Link |Jeannie back in #99 you asked
Here is my take (and please rest assured that I am completely aware that it does not match up with modern day evangelicalism so no need to remind me about that)
Modern day fundamentalistis Evangelicalism has hijacked real faith and changed its name to “assurance” or more accurately “certainty”
This is such sacrosanct territory that the mere suggestion that these terms might be inccorect makes some people see red.
Faith means - we believe even though we can’t prove something.
We choose to believe. Our belief is based on subjective experiences and confidence we place in the Bible.
I choose to believe that Jesus is God and there is no other. However I can’t prove that - Consequently I am fine simply living as if it is true and also content to do so even if it proves out that I am wrong.
I dont feel as if I wasted my life or placed a bet on the wrong horse.
I hope that Jesus is real, I am confident that he is. I want him to be real and my subjective experiences provide me with enough material to bet my life on his reality.
But I could be wrong and that is where heartfelt believers like Kathy and I part ways.
If the God that Kathy appears to believe in is running the universe then as she has so well stated I am demon possessed and she will be happy to celebrate my eternity writhing in the fires of Hell along with my Athiest friends.
However, I have decided that what I see in Jesus and what I see in Kathy’s god simply do not correlate so I am left to having to choose.
I choose Jesus and I’ll take my chances with him.
Nor do I but you should read The New Christians by Tony Jones if you want a very well thought out explanation of that movement. It’s not going away
Comment by: Jeannie
127 02/27/08 9:09 PM | Comment Link |Ok I was gonna sign off but now I have to respond. Benjamin, are you on planet earth????
Sure Muslims and Christians get along fine in Muslim theocracies all over the middle east….as long as Christians don’t talk about Jesus, don’t build their homes and buildings any higher than Muslim buildings, and don’t repair their homes and buildings when they fall into disrepair. Christians and Jews are dhimmi. You really can’t be serious.
Maybe here in the west, Muslims and Christians can get along…only because Muslims and Christians have the same FREEDOMS guaranteed by JudeoChristian philosophy. Is that what you are referring to???? …Muslims and Christians getting along in the west under the banner of freedom? Muslims and Christians would not be getting along just fine under Sharia law…unless the fact that Christians are so subdued and suppressed it seems more peaceful because there isn’t any offensive evangelizing going on????
Comment by: benjamin ady
128 02/27/08 9:15 PM | Comment Link |Jim,
that’s a vat of the drool of all your admiring fans in hell for you. Boiling flaming drool from our vulgar pomo mouths.
=)
Kathy,
You don’t by any chance live in Virginia, do you?
Comment by: Jeannie
129 02/27/08 9:18 PM | Comment Link |Thanks, Jim for the response. I’m pretty sure I disagree with you. Sorry. Looks like we both have trouble fitting in, in different way. You’re right, the pomo thing isn’t going away…I run into it everywhere I turn…hence, I don’t fit in.
I don’t think Kathy would revel in anyone burning in hell. I know I wouldn’t and I’m sure I believe in the same God she’s talking about….the God of the Bible…old and new testament come as Jesus in the flesh.
Benjamin, I hope I didn’t come on too strong. :( Maybe I should relinquish my sash and crown??? I just don’t want you to overcompensate too far…is that overredundant?
Comment by: Eliza
130 02/27/08 9:24 PM | Comment Link |Jeannie, I got a kick out of your story. But I also want to comment on what you said before that:
Faith may be the substance of things hoped for & the evidence of things not seen, as in Hebrews, but I don’t see why faith means certainty by any means. Many people of deep faith have struggled with the idea of “BICBW”, including, as one example, Mother Teresa. And we/you/noone knows what the people of faith you mention above were actually thinking, feeling, and fearing as they faced tremendous adversity.
Didn’t Jesus himself cry out at the ninth hour, “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me” (Mark 15:34 and Matthew 27:46)?
And didn’t David write, in Psalm 22:1-2, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from the words of my groaning? O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer…”
Comment by: Claudia
131 02/27/08 9:26 PM | Comment Link |Jeannie, I truly say this as someone who’s going to look you up and form an unlikely alliance when the fascists come:
I don’t think that’s Judeo-Christian philosophy, at least originally. Not to dive into a whole history-of-democracy thing, but you really have to give that one to the Athenians, in all their pagan glory.
Comment by: benjamin ady
132 02/27/08 9:27 PM | Comment Link |…
Jeannie,
I’m going to get back to you on that, because I have a friend who works in Palestine who might have some interesting things to add here. But I would ask this: do you suppose that Christians and Muslims got along better in Iraq before or after the invasion of that nation by the United States military?
Another way of phrasing that question is: Do you think it’s reasonable to posit that Christian/Muslim conflict is *all*, or *mostly*, the fault of Muslims? And is your answer to this question related to your answers to other similar questions about black/white conflict, European immigrant/Native American conflict, Serbian/Albanian conflict (this list goes on for eternity)?
Because the sense that I’m getting from you is that you do indeed think that the conflict is mostly *their* fault. And … if “they” think they same thing the other direction, what *hope* is there for any progress? Very little, it would seem.
What if someone says “I’m going to choose to be the forgiver, and like Christ, I will allow you to go free –I will choose to pay the emotional and physical penalties for the harm you inflicted on me (mercy) rather than require that you pay them (justice). And I’m going to beg the same forgiveness for the wrong *we’ve* done against you. *THEN* maybe there’s starts to be some hope for reconciliation.
I know, insane level of hope. I don’t actually buy it. it’s a bit too Christian for me. That’s part of my problem with Christianity. I can’t muster that much hope.
Comment by: Kathy
133 02/27/08 9:46 PM | Comment Link |Benjamin, I give up. You just don’t get what I am saying at all. You will have to come to your own conclusions. Jim, it was nice to finally see you comment in civility. I am sorry you see me as serving some other God that is foreign to you. I thought this was all about being truthful here and not put on the church dog. However I do not apologize that I have a stronger faith than peeps in here want to deal with and I am quite adamant about it. I have hijacked nothing. Jesus got really angry when the diciples could not cast out a demon because they lacked the faith to do it. (not that I want to go around casting out demons, or even that my faith is near what the diciples had). I would take no joy at anyone burning in hell and I hope you were kidding about that. Now you have disqualified me in a more educated way that all your hearers can relate too. Bravo. This takes you to a higher level. The POMO movement is not going away, I agree with that, but neither are us fundies. Jeannie, my advise to you (and anyone else interested) stay away from those authors of books that lead you away from God’s true word, and teach a doctrine that is man made. The pomo is backwards from what the bible teaches us. It is a doctrine of untruths and half truths. The door to salvation will soon close because we are in the last days. My hope Jim, is that these people will be given the whole truth about salvation and not some hokey “DIY Salvation”. The days are short. I would hope that all would take their chances on Jesus and not on anyone else. I must admit I enjoyed riling you all up. Some are good sports, some are not. Some of you know what you want others have no clue what they believe or don’t believe. Benjamin thought he was being slick in trying to twist my beliefs. A true Democrat liberal, and I’m not even running for anything! Heaven is a big place, maybe someday I will see you there! (I think I am still qualified) ; 0 Helen, I hope you find what you are looking for.
Comment by: Randy
134 02/27/08 9:51 PM | Comment Link |I’m sorry…I thought you guys were typing PORNO. Must be the font.
What does POMO stand for again?
Comment by: Randy
135 02/27/08 9:54 PM | Comment Link |Oh wait…that’s short for PostModern, right?
I get it now. The porno thing kinda threw me for about 50 posts.
Comment by: Kathy
136 02/27/08 9:55 PM | Comment Link |Benjamin,,,FOR YOU
(edited by Helen at Kathy’s request to remove wrong link; correct link is in Kathy’s comment #143)