Beth and Traci: Only So Good
Sue, upon regaining her composure after finding out that an atheist was sitting three feet away during bible study at College Park Church: “One of my daughter’s teachers was an atheist. I didn’t know for the longest time because she was so sweet and loving.”
Awkward silence.
Beth: “Did you ever ask her why she was so good?”
Sue: “I did actually. It was just in her. That was the way she was intended to be. She could only be so good, though.”
I’m not terribly familiar with the doctrine, but is this “only so good” business part of it or just one lady’s interpretation? I mean, clearly it’s possible that I be quite good.
I be pretty good already.
Imagine that I shovel my elderly neighbor’s driveway in the winter and mow her grass in the summer, that I grow my hair so I can cut it and donate it to Locks of Love, grow, cut, donate, grow, cut, donate, that I spend my weekends volunteering to teach adults to read, that I donate 25% of my income to charities that cover medical expenses for sick, underprivileged children and then decide that isn’t enough and move to a much smaller house so I can begin donating 50% of my income to charities, adding those that work to eradicate hunger, and that I adopt 57 children, 18 of them special-needs kids, that I start going to night school so I can study nursing to best care for them, and that when I learn one of my reading students needs a bone-marrow transplant, I donate, and when another needs a kidney, I give that up, too, and because of my efforts, two people get a second chance at life, 57 children get a safe, loving home, thousands of kids stop going to bed hungry and hundreds of other kids get much-needed medical care, but I die without ever changing my mind about God.
Am I still not as good as Jeffrey Dahmer?
Comment by: benjamin ady
1 02/19/08 8:39 AM | Comment Link |Nope =) (I mean if we choose to define “good” as some kind of blather like “Once you’ve accepted Christ, you’re clothed with Christ’s righteousness, so when God looks at you, she doesn’t see your abonimable sinfulness, she sees Christ’s righteousness. But without that covering, we are all worms and clothed in filthy rags before God. etc. etc. (I could go on at much more length, actually))
Comment by: Lona H
2 02/19/08 8:50 AM | Comment Link |Wow! I have been following you two since inception and this is the first one that has moved me to respond. I am what many would consider a Christian- I believe that Jesus is the Son of God and came to earth fully human to save us…. I speak “Christianese” fluently. I am also judgmental, selfish, arrogant, I’ve had affairs, lied, and I’m gay. Am I more than good?
Comment by: Beth Bates
3 02/19/08 9:30 AM | Comment Link |Lona, thanks for dropping by the B&T series. You’re welcome here, in all your more than good (bad?) glory. Where did you learn to speak Christianese? Do you only pull it out when among the natives? Do you believe what you speak, for the most part? Or do you just speak it to get by? And… Save us from what?
Comment by: Traci
4 02/19/08 9:33 AM | Comment Link |Is not being a Christian a sin?
I mean, if I live a completely moral life but don’t accept Christ, does God still see only filthy rags?
I much prefer a merit-based system.
Comment by: benjamin ady
5 02/19/08 9:40 AM | Comment Link |What do you mean by “sin”?
I much prefer an astoundingly gracious system, whereby everybody gets in on the good stuff, regardless of merit, unless they persistently, ongoing, adamantly choose to opt out of the good stuff. And in my preferred system, if that pisses off the good people, because they worked so much harder at being “moral” or “good” or what have you, and “earned” their ticket to the good stuff, then too *&@^(ing bad for them. (Please understand I’m saying that last phrase with the utmost kindness and smilingness in my tone and demeanor)
Comment by: Beth Bates
6 02/19/08 9:53 AM | Comment Link |“Astoundingly gracious.” I like that.
Comment by: Traci
7 02/19/08 9:55 AM | Comment Link |I mean does it make Jesus cry?
No, I just mean am I covered in sin because I’m not a Christian even if I don’t steal or lie or cheat or commit other sinly deeds?
Comment by: Helen
8 02/19/08 11:21 AM | Comment Link |Traci wrote:
Basically yes, according to conservative Christian teaching. Read the second of the four spiritual laws.
Comment by: Helen
9 02/19/08 11:36 AM | Comment Link |Benjamin wrote:
Me too. I know that Christians would say their system is astoundingly gracious. I think it would be if the grace wasn’t limited to people able to believe.
Comment by: benjamin ady
10 02/19/08 12:05 PM | Comment Link |Traci,
I love your questions. I just want to make explicit something that seems to be happening implicitly here. Please correct me if I am totally wrong.
Implicity, it seems to me that we are discussing things at two levels. We have a sort of mental/intellectual workspace, and we are saying “Let us consider: ‘What is the nature of the “Christian” (how do you like my multiple embedded quotation marks?) thought/ideology about sin/morality/etc.?’, and specifically what that reality is within a certain specific *type* of Christian paradigm which Helen has referred to as ‘conservative’.”
And meanwhile, we must continue to operate in the “real world” by which I mean, how do you and I actually think about our own goodness/morality/sin etc.?
I think it’s important to point out, in such a discussion, that that to which Helen has referred as “conservative Christianity” is only one relatively small viewpoint among Christians. Which is to say there are something like 2 billion Christians on the face of the planet, and they have *lots* of different takes on lots of different things, and internationally Sue represents a relatively smallish minority, most likely.
I found that the conservative Christians with whom I grew up had a relatively large disconnect between what they claimed to believe in their “intellectual workspace” and the way they acted in real life. Yes the two are definitely related, and the former puts certain constraints on the range of the latter. But, for instance, the people I grew up with claimed to believe that the great majority of people from all of history will end up in eternal conscious suffering being tortured forever in hell. But they weren’t all … really really cruel in their daily interactions with people–Christian and non-Christian. I mean Sue could *say* this really rude thing to you, but I suspect whe wouldn’t consciously treat you as inferior, for instance, in a daily interaction, for instance at the grocery store checkout line–even if she really thinks you’re headed for eternal conscious suffering. She isn’t interested, for instance, in torturing you herself.
Of course cultural oppression, experienced by many minorities, and by atheists more than many in this culture, is very real, and I’m convinced can be really painful. I don’t want to discount that. What we do in our intellectual workspace *does* lead to this. But I don’t think it’s usually conscious. It’s more banal.
Sorry to carry on so long.
Comment by: karen
11 02/19/08 12:17 PM | Comment Link |Traci, conservative Christian doctrine says that accepting Christ is the only way to find favor with god. Period. They not only say it, they revel in it.
The problem with making right belief (accepting Christ) the only criteria for reward (going to heaven, living in Christian community) versus punishment (going to hell, living separated from god’s love) is that the choice is so unclear.
Let’s face it, there are and have been thousands and thousands of religious systems throughout human history, many of which have sacred “holy” texts, “sanctified” leaders, complex doctrine, mythology and dogma. A lot of them do good and promote good by objective standards. All of them have their warts and foibles, in my opinion. So how does one choose which religion is correct, and how does one decide to reject all the others (assuming they are mutually exclusive)?
The best predictor of what religion you’ll adopt as an adult is what religion you were taught to believe by your family and other authority figures when you were a child. None of the religions has a knock-out argument, nor can any produce empirical evidence for its truth.
Given this confusing, highly culturally determined atmosphere, I can’t see how anyone would believe that god expects individuals to find the right way and make the right choice - especially when all eternity depends upon it. Surely if he was going to make the stakes that high, he’d provide very clear-cut evidence by which people all over the world, during all of history, could reach the proper conclusion. Anything less is just blatantly unfair.
Comment by: Peggy Sue
12 02/19/08 3:35 PM | Comment Link |Am I still not as good as Jeffrey Dahmer?
Apparently Jeffrey Dahmer accepted Christ before he died…
Comment by: Randy
13 02/19/08 5:50 PM | Comment Link |Very intriguing discussion here. It seems patently obvious that people, no matter their faith (or lack thereof) are capable of all kinds of goodness. And having faith (in Christ or anything else) doesn’t seem to necessarily increase the level of “goodness” in the moral sense, any more than not having faith decreases it. I would argue, from the Christian view, that because we humans are created in the image of God, we retain that image despite our lack of congnitive awareness of God or lack of response to Him. And I would argue (with C.S. Lewis) that the moral law that we all seem to appeal to (or argue against) seems to require the existence of God (it’s a long but interesting and easy to understand argument which can be found in “Mere Christianity”).
I’m not sure what conservative Christianity is anymore, but I might suggest that the idea that “accepting Christ is the only way to find favor with God, period”, as Karen suggested above, may not be quite accurate. “God so loved the world that He gave his one and only son…” (Jn. 3:16), which implies a certain degree of favor, I would think. Only the most hard core Calvinists would lean into such a disparate position. Most conservative Christians would agree that salvation from sin (and it’s consequences) comes only through Christ, which does reset our relationship with God in a way that works for both God and us, but His love for us is neither increased nor diminished by anything we do. It is our love for Him that changes once we sense His love and forgiveness of us. We love because he first loved us.
Sorry. A bit too much sermonizing there.
The comment from “Sue” was insensitive, at best. I’d have to chalk it up to being caught in an awkward moment, probably because she has had little interaction with anyone outside her small circle of faith. Tragic, really. I can’t imagine saying anything like this to my atheist friend. Quite the contrary, in fact. I have often told him I wish I was more like him. He’s one of the kindest, most compassionate people I know.
Comment by: Lysha Broad
14 02/19/08 7:05 PM | Comment Link |Okay, I wasn’t going to post any “spiritual” responses, but this discussion’s too good to pass up.
First of all, Traci, you’re a doll in my book. Regardless of your belief system. Seriously. :)
Second of all, in response to wondering if you’re “still good” and to avoid too much doctrinal mumbo jumbo, here’s my take on this subject: We’re all a bunch of messed-up train wrecks. Period. I feel very strongly about this, by the way, regardless on who would ask me about the subject. But anyway, it doesn’t matter if we know Jesus, if we do everything perfect, if we never “sin”. Doesn’t matter if we believe in “the four spiritual laws”, if we never lie, cheat, or steal. Even if we all do those things, we’re all still completely desperate people. It doesn’t mean it’s okay to beat someone up or rob a bank, but I strongly believe we’re not graded on a curve. If that makes any sense. I am a self-proclaimed Christ-follower (and it scares me saying that out loud in fear I’ll disappoint someone when I do mess up), I don’t lie, cheat, steal, sleep with men other than my husband, but I really am so undeniably screwed-up. And nothing I do will change that fact. (If that is, in fact, a fact.)
Ok, I’m done. That’s just my take on it. But just like many people who don’t believe in Jesus are wonderful, warm, loving people, there are also many “Christians” who are complete assholes, and make me ashamed to call myself that.
Okay, I’m done for real now. The end. :)
Comment by: Jana
15 02/19/08 7:13 PM | Comment Link |I think its interesting though… growing up in the pacific NW the only thing I really knew/heard about Christianity until late HS/College was that if you didn’t believe in Jesus (not that I really knew what that meant) then Christians believed you/I was going to Hell, ie the hot, red and fiery place.
Back to the kitchen I have 11 cakes to bake tonight :)
Comment by: Jody
16 02/19/08 7:54 PM | Comment Link |I have just started to read the New Testament section of the Bible. I want the Jesus from the Bible back. He was not “seeker-sensitive” (christian’s will know that term). He didn’t waterdown him message as to not offend.
He didn’t let traditions of the old school church persuade him to rethink his position. He didn’t follow the latest trends.
He spoke with love and authority. He healed the sick, he raised the dead, he made the blind see and the lame walk. And he told his disciples to do the same thing.
I want that Jesus. He didn’t turn anyone away, but many turned away from him. He loves us desparately. This is not opinion, I’m just summarizing the Bible message.
Today, these same miracles are happening. They have been for thousand of years. I’m not sure why the church has abondoned this kind of ministry. Check out radical christians who live like Jesus does, like Todd Bentley and Heidi Baker. And just yesterday, a friend of mine healed another friend of migraines.
That is what I want to pursue … a Jesus who is the unconditional lover of your soul. Next time you or your kids are sick or someone has cancer, call church for a hot meal, but call Jesus for the miraculous.
Now, there might be a few churches pursuing the complete package deal of Jesus. I can only hope.
Now I guess we’ll have the doubters next. The “show me” folks. Start looking! I found a Bible verse that said “if you seek me with all your heart, you will be found by me.” Jeremiah 29:13. I think its worth further investigation.
Comment by: Lisa
17 02/19/08 8:39 PM | Comment Link |The 2 bible verses that come to mind while reading these posts…
Matthew 6:21 (NKJV) “For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
Acts 20:35 Paul told people “to remember the words of the
Lord Jesus, how he said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’â€
Maybe what Traci just described IS Heaven ?!
Comment by: Justin McKean
18 02/20/08 12:58 AM | Comment Link |An agnostic friend of mine was recently down and out. An adult, she moved home to live with her folks for a bit while she regained her legs. One day her father told her that the kindness she was being shown should demonstrate the love of God. This bothered my friend.
She asked, “So you’re letting me stay here because of God?”
Her father said, “Yes. We love you because Jesus first loved us.”
My friend said, “Oh, I was kind of hoping you loved me because I’m your kid.”
She moved out shortly after.
I don’t mean to be argumentative, but when I hear someone say they love or do good because of Jesus (or any other religious notion) I honestly think one of two things. Either they’re not really telling the truth, in that they’d do good and love others anyway, like atheists do, or they are fake, salesman-y people whose love I honestly don’t want.
I’m glad to see the change in Christianity that seems to be happening. It’s not such an exclusive group, like it was when I was a Christian. These vestigial churches, I think, will be around for a while, but they’re not representative of the mainstream, in my recent experience.
Comment by: Jody
19 02/20/08 6:08 AM | Comment Link |Everyone can muster up enough love to proceed through life. But there is a supernatural love that flows from a life filled with Jesus. This is the kind of love that fills us with hope when it appears to be hopeless. It allows us to forgive the unforgiveable. It fills us with peace in the middle of storms. This kind of love is filled also with joy, patience, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self control. Galatians 5:22-26
Comment by: Helen
20 02/20/08 8:25 AM | Comment Link |Lisa I understand what you mean but hopefully heaven won’t be full of suffering people?
Justin, that’s a great illustration of how something Christians say can come across as offensive to a hearer who isn’t a Christian. It would have been better for those Christian parents to let go of the need to proclaim their beliefs about love coming from Jesus and instead assure their child they loved her. No matter what.
Words get in the way when Christians say things to people who aren’t Christians that Chistians are used to saying to each other and think nothing of. The people who aren’t Christians are not used to hearing them and will ascribe their own meaning to them, which may make what was said seem offensive.
This is why I think it’s very important for Christians to pay attention to how people who aren’t Christians react to what they say. If it’s not working then maybe there’s a better way of saying it. One which leaves less room for interpretation?
Jody wrote:
Jody, I realize Christians believe that but in practice I’m lacking evidence that Christians have a love other people don’t have.
Comment by: Claudia
21 02/20/08 8:38 AM | Comment Link |To be fair, I can see the transubstantiation thing really appealing to him.
But she’s getting there sans Jesus, which, according to the man himself, or at least folks writing about the man himself, isn’t possible, right?
Comment by: Lisa
22 02/20/08 9:59 AM | Comment Link |Helen, my hope is the same.
Claudia, you’re really twisted aren’t you? I tend to like that in a person.
I can’t wait to hear what Traci thinks about Jesus’ words when he speaks of the kingdom of heaven, without any doctrinal baggage attached.
Comment by: Traci
23 02/20/08 10:29 AM | Comment Link |LYSHA: I’m intrigued. What makes us all “messed-up train wrecks” and “completely desperate,” and how does that tie in to sin?
Comment by: Jody
24 02/20/08 11:33 AM | Comment Link |great comment Helen. How much evidence is enough?
Fortunately, lack of evidence does not prove or disprove whether or not this kind of love exists. I can’t see gravity or the wind, but I certainly know it exists due to the results.
And you are right, it would be nice to see more results of this kind of love. The Bible gives clear directions on how to get results when this kind of love is inside a person. So I continue to pursue it. I want to claim the promises of the Bible for my generation.
Here is an example “If my people will humble themselves, seek my face, pray and turn from their wicked ways, then I will heal their land.” 2 Chronicles 7:14.
Okay, so if I do those things, I”m guarenteed that promise! I’m going after it! I’ll keep you posted. Already, I’m seeing lives changed.
That is why I encourage people to read straight from the Bible to meet Him face to face. This avoids some watered down version or misinformation about him.
Comment by: karen
25 02/20/08 11:44 AM | Comment Link |Nearly every religious tradition claims that it spawns “miracles.” Check out this list that Daylight Atheist put together of miracle testimonies from Buddhism, Islam, Mormonism, paganism, Catholicism, etc.
How do we know which of these miracles are authentic; particularly when the belief systems cancel each other out?
Comment by: Helen
26 02/20/08 11:55 AM | Comment Link |Jody wrote:
I’d say the results are the evidence, in considering things we can’t actually see.
Thanks
I’m glad you want to have it.
Comment by: Helen
27 02/20/08 11:58 AM | Comment Link |Thanks Lisa.
Comment by: Beth Bates
28 02/20/08 12:04 PM | Comment Link |I never cease to be amazed by the direction discussions take on this blog.
Hey, Jody. Thanks for posting. My concern with all the internal focus is that it leaves out the people Jesus wanted us to focus on. It’s exclusionary language. Have you had time to hang with anyone outside the tribe? You know I love you and admire your devotion and earnest pursuit of God. I worry too much focus on the hocus pocus makes us lose the plot.
Thoughts?
Comment by: Jody
29 02/20/08 12:12 PM | Comment Link |great question Karen … I love this group!!!
Well Karen, you question opens the door a little wider to the world of the unseen.
As far as I can see …Jesus-followers can perform miracles, just as those who do not claim Jesus as their source.
So how to spot the difference? Again, I’ll take Helen’s lead on this and claim the “results” factor. And the results should be a overflow of love and compassion and service. Not self glorification.
Don’t just heal the blind, but provide him with a new pair of sunglasses!
Those who perform miracles without Jesus, are working with Satan and his merry men. I know, it sounds crazy, just taking it from the Bible.
I do know that those who have experienced miracles from Jesus have big life change for the better. They become filled with “result-oriented” love and service too. Not sure the outcome of the other folks.
Comment by: Beth Bates
30 02/20/08 12:17 PM | Comment Link |(Jody - do the Lutheran police know you’re into this sort of thing?) ;0)
Comment by: Jody
31 02/20/08 12:21 PM | Comment Link |I love you too Beth! I’m not sure the answer to that.
I guess those “outside the tribe” would have to answer that question.
Do the claims from Jesus such as healings aka hocus pocus, freak people out too much? Is that why the church has abondoned it as to not offend?
Just because people fail doesn’t make Jesus a fraud.
I’d like to hear what other think too. Thanks for keeping it real!
Comment by: Jody
32 02/20/08 12:22 PM | Comment Link |yikes, the lutheran police are at my door, better go recite the Lords Prayer quick. :) you crack me up.
Comment by: Traci
33 02/20/08 12:58 PM | Comment Link |JODY: What kind of miracles are we talking here? The life change itself, or is that a result?
Comment by: Missy Welsch
34 02/20/08 4:45 PM | Comment Link |Traci, my response to this Sue person is that I feel like doing bodily damage. I mean, pull her hair reaaaalllly hard and twist her arm until it leaves a bruise. I am sort of seething, actually. It is just that I’ve experienced this very thing and I AM a Christian. This type of ignorance is the same as when you hear someone whisper, “He’s Jewish.” You want to shudder, it’s beyond comprehension. I apologize for her. And keep up the good work, you know, all of those good deeds.
Comment by: Lysha Broad
35 02/20/08 5:55 PM | Comment Link |Traci wrote:
LYSHA: I’m intrigued. What makes us all “messed-up train wrecks†and “completely desperate,†and how does that tie in to sin?
Okay. Without having to quote any scripture (you’re probably all scriptured out by now), the bottom line is that no one can earn holiness. Or rather, perfection. (I’m not a fan of the word “holy”, actually.)
Anyway, the way it ties into sin is that we’re all lawbreakers. Doesn’t matter if we are speeding or are on death row for serial murder, we did something illegal at one point. Granted, human logic tells us that murdering people is so much worse than going 70mpg in a 55mph zone, but this is just a mediocre analogy for my big-picture thinking. So, since we’re all lawbreakers in some form, we’re all messed-up train wrecks and completely desperate for being bailed out of prison.
But again, that’s just my non-Biblical, hopefully not too preachy take on it. :)
Comment by: Helen
36 02/20/08 6:23 PM | Comment Link |Lysha wrote:
In the Old Testament some people were described as perfect - like Noah and Job:
(Hmmmm…I just noticed something for the first time…I was always told how significant it was that Jesus was ’sinless’ i.e. ‘without blemish’ like the lamb the Israelites had to sacrifice. But now I see that the Hebrew word ‘without blemish’ i.e. perfect is used of Noah and of ‘good’ people in general in the Old Testament)
Comment by: Jody
37 02/20/08 6:29 PM | Comment Link |Traci wrote … JODY: What kind of miracles are we talking here? The life change itself, or is that a result?
all thee above. Internal heart/emotional change which should result in outward results. And of course the “hocus pocus” so lovingly described by Beth :) miracles count too. Healing people’s big physical ailments cause inward and outward results too.
Comment by: Lysha Broad
38 02/20/08 6:34 PM | Comment Link |HELEN: Hm. Maybe. But then again in those days they had to cover their butts or else they’d have to make all sorts of sacrifices or even die because of their sin. Or, their priests would die because of the sin of the people. So in their books, it was better to be safe than sorry, right? :) But really, we can’t earn a good seat. We’ll still fail. Know what I mean?
Comment by: Helen
39 02/20/08 7:10 PM | Comment Link |Lysha, I do but…this is one reason I walked away. It doesn’t make sense to me to define a system in such a way that people are always failing.
Today I’m sure you weren’t a miserable failure all day long. If you were to describe your day to me I’m sure there would be good things you did in it. It bothers me how [the form of] Christianity [I was in for 16 years] says “ah but the standard is unattainable perfection“, hence defining everything we do as failing.
I’m soooo tired of that system.
Comment by: Lisa
40 02/20/08 7:32 PM | Comment Link |Helen, tell me more about that frustration. To me it’s a relief to not have to be perfect. Maybe because I’m a perfectionist by nature, that it’s so relaxing to feel there’s a safe place that I don’t have to be.
Comment by: Helen
41 02/20/08 7:37 PM | Comment Link |Lisa, I felt a lot of pressure to try when I was a Christian. The Bible says things like “Make every effort…” I didn’t find making every effort very relaxing :)
Comment by: Jody
42 02/20/08 8:06 PM | Comment Link |Here’s a fun biblical summary of Jesus …
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cKAgGck0Ho
Comment by: Lisa
43 02/20/08 8:45 PM | Comment Link |I have a theory that we people who have experienced some sort of faith in our life may look through parent colored glasses. That is, our perspective of God is somehow skewed by what our parents expectations were and how we were treated, good or bad. Even though I personally heard about God’s grace growing up, that terminology made no sense to me because I wasn’t experiencing it at home. I remember a particular bible verse that used to give me trouble and when I finally commented on the verse, I was looked at like I had 3 heads. No one could understand how I could see Jesus words as harsh, when the rest of the group perceived his words as loving. It was that moment that I realized I was hearing Jesus words through some of the fucked up people in my life.
I’m wondering what other’s thoughts on this are.
Comment by: Jane Doe
44 02/20/08 9:14 PM | Comment Link |I think you all have “works” mixed up with “Grace”. We don’t work our way into God’s Grace.
Works do not bring salvation , but works is a result of salvation.
There are idiots all around us, christians and atheists that say stupid things, we can’t hold the entire “people” responsible for a few bad apples.
Comment by: Jody
45 02/20/08 10:16 PM | Comment Link |well said Jane Doe … just because people have failed us does not make Jesus and his message a fraud.
Comment by: Helen
46 02/21/08 5:10 AM | Comment Link |Lisa wrote:
Lisa, I totally agree that our experiences color our perceptions and interpretations.
I think it could go either way though. Maybe if you shared Jesus’ words with a group of atheists they’d immediately say “Of course those are harsh!” Maybe from an atheist point of view, the only reason anyone wouldn’t think those words are harsh is if they don’t have permission to think it, because they believe Jesus is perfect and therefore would never be harsh.
(Then there may be Christians who agree the words are harsh because they say - it’s ok to be harsh when it’s justified - so it doesn’t conflict with Jesus’ perfection if he was harsh when appropriate. Like to the Pharisees in Matthew 23 - I think Jesus was harsh there, by any standards, actually)
I’m curious: which specific words of Jesus did you used to think were harsh?
Comment by: Helen
47 02/21/08 5:19 AM | Comment Link |Jane Doe wrote:
I’m not just looking at a ‘few bad apples’ - I’m looking at people in general and thinking “I don’t see any significant difference in ‘goodness’ between Christians and people who aren’t Christians. How is that supposed to show me Jesus is real?”
(Which also means I totally disagree with Sue’s implication than atheists cannot be as good as Christians)
Comment by: Traci
48 02/21/08 6:23 AM | Comment Link |I don’t want salvation, Jane. My point was that I actually want no part of it if somebody can earn it with a last-minute conversion, no matter how sincere, after a life of murder and cannibalism but I can’t even if I devote my life to serving others.
I think good works should take precedence over “salvation.”
Comment by: Traci
49 02/21/08 6:26 AM | Comment Link |Further, I would never discount all Christians because of the words of one or even several morons.
If that were my mode of thinking, I wouldn’t be here at all.
And back to an older conversation:
JODY: What does a miracle look like? What happened when your friend cured your other friend’s migraines?
Comment by: Helen
50 02/21/08 6:32 AM | Comment Link |Traci wrote:
I feel the same way, Traci.
Well, except that realistically, I’d probably cave if someone offered to increase my comfort/alleviate my suffering, rather than holding out on principle because other people weren’t getting the same relief. And that would be because I’m selfish - not because I think it’s right or fair.
Comment by: Claudia
51 02/21/08 7:52 AM | Comment Link |I’ve given up proof-of-god arguments for Lent, but there are a few things I want to make certain I’m understanding correctly.
Jody:
So you’re saying here that the evidence for the supernatural love you describe is the same type of and quality of evidence we have for gravity and the wind?
If I’m reading this right, you’re saying that Muslims, for instance, who believe that they’ve been healed through the intercession of Allah are, intentionally or not, involved with Satan. Am I reading this right?
(I also now have an image of Satan running around in green tights and thwarting the Sheriff of Nottingham, so, thanks for that. Brett, THERE’s your short story idea.)
Well, if it does come up, why not just cling to an arbitrary system that paints those other people as unworthy in some way? :)
Comment by: Jana
52 02/21/08 8:38 AM | Comment Link |Traci and Helen,
You both have some fascinating ideas!
I guess my question is how good would someone have to be to get salvation? Lets say I work at a homeless shelter but because I don’t make very much money I buy my clothes at a wal-mart, and wal-mart doesn’t have the most just record of supporting its workers and I assume that my clothes may have come from a sweat shop. Essentially my trying to serve also leads to my supporting a company that does a lot of harm.
Or maybe I was raised in Poverty and subjeted to a pathetic education system and found that the only option I saw to survive was to get involved with a gang… that lead to a life of crime, am I beyond all hope and now worthless?
I’m just not sure how I could be good enough to earn salvation.
Thoughts?
Comment by: Jim Henderson
53 02/21/08 8:51 AM | Comment Link |Where does Jesus talk about differentiating between grace and works?
I just can’t remember seeing that
Can someone help us with this
Comment by: Helen
54 02/21/08 9:25 AM | Comment Link |Claudia wrote:
But no-one would fall for that, Claudia…would they?
Jana wrote:
Jana, what if the person who assigned salvation was reasonable and took your circumstances into account? What if they set the standard at ‘doable’ rather than ‘impossibly high’? And then adjusted it even more to take account of your circumstances?
Jim wrote:
Good question.
Comment by: Jane Doe
55 02/21/08 10:09 AM | Comment Link |“It is by Grace that you are saved, not works so that any man can boast”. Grace is God’s unmerited favor. It is a gift, something we have not earned or worked for. Jim, is that a trick question? I don’t think we had grace until after his death. It was a new dispensation. What good was his death and shed blood if we can simply do works to be saved? His death would have been in vain, and I am sure God did not intend to “GIVE’ His only son if that were the case..
Comment by: Helen
56 02/21/08 10:19 AM | Comment Link |Jane are you saying that as soon as Jesus died, what he taught no longer applied? Did Jesus warn people that this was going to happen? When Jesus was alive did works count?
Comment by: Jane Doe
57 02/21/08 10:31 AM | Comment Link |No, that is not what I am saying at all. He means for us to follow his teachings, good works included, all I am saying is salvation is not something you earn by works. As I stated before, works is the result of salvation, not vice versa. Works did not count before His death, that is why they had the high priests to offer up the “sacrificial lamb” to atone for sins.
Comment by: karen
58 02/21/08 12:24 PM | Comment Link |Actually, it doesn’t sound crazy, Jody. I was a conservative evangelical for 30 years, and what you’ve said above is exactly what I was taught.
Here’s why I can’t support that belief any longer: I examined it very closely for quite a while and eventually realized that it felt impossibly arrogant to me. I’m not accusing you personally of being arrogant, by the way, but I’m saying that belief (we Christians are on the right track and all the other religions in the world are Satanic) is unsupportable by any evidence other than in-group preference and xenophobia.
For instance, you mention that only Jesus-y miracles have good results in terms of love and compassion. But I looked into miracle stories in other traditions, such as Buddhist and Islam, and wouldn’t you know it - they claim similar positive results! Their people are just as adamant that they have seen true miracles from god as Christians are.
So, it seems to me that there’s no way to objectively decide which miracles are from god and which from Satan, other than to favor the group that you are already involved in or were raised in. That’s like favoring your own race or your own nationality or your own way of doing things as superior to all the others just because it’s YOUR race, YOUR country or whatever.
That’s not acceptable to me anymore. I concluded that without enough evidence to decide between them, either all the miracles were valid, and all god claims were true, or none of them are/were.
Comment by: Jody
59 02/21/08 3:18 PM | Comment Link |So this is where the line in the sand is drawn. Either you hold fast to the claim of Jesus or you don’t. Respectable decisions made in either direction.
And here is where many (big quotion mark) “christians” have defamed the name throughout generations.
It is people like our lovely Sue at the beginning of Traci’s entry, who brought judgement into the relationship. Bad move. Jesus clearly said he did not come to condemn the world, but to save the world.
But the correct answer is to choose love. That is what I will attempt to stand on. I still absolutely love, respect and admire everyone here for sharing their heart and questions.
And as a Christian trying to dig that heavy name out of the deep pit of confusion, the offer to love you still remains regardless of your decision. I think this is one of the points Jim and Casper and now Beth and Traci are trying to live out.
Now, the Bible clearly teaches a “judgement” for those who chose not to believe. I’d be wrong to not include this little nugget. But the Judge, the big man upstairs aka God himself gets to make that call. Not me or anyone who walks this earth.
The one thing I can do is to be the best expression of Love I can be. And as an anti-judgemental Christian, I believe my ability to love comes from God.
I feel like breaking out into a Beatles song right now. All we need is LOVE … :)
Okay, so it might sound a little gushy, but I think it is closer to the main point of what Jesus intended for his peeps.
Comment by: Jody
60 02/21/08 3:33 PM | Comment Link |Traci wrote: “JODY: What does a miracle look like? What happened when your friend cured your other friend’s migraines?”
I’ll give this one to you straight from my heart. I hope it does not offend as I will use a lot of Christian language here. I’m not real great at watering down Jesus. It would be good to also read the many healing stories in the Bible too to get some context for the how’s and the why’s of the healing. Although this is a christian term, but the best way for me … the healing was led by the Holy Spirit.
Well, in that particular case, my friend prayed about this situation and felt led to ask the family if the teen age boy would like to be prayed over and request healing from the Lord. The boy said yes, so his mother brought him.
My friend shared her own story of healing from her migraines and how the Lord has freely given her a healing, so now freely give. The Lord has used her to heal two others of their migraines. She clearly gave God all the glory and that this would be His act, not hers.
Then she and another friend laid their hands on him, anointed his head with oil, prayed the name of Jesus over his head. For that particular moment, she and the boy felt like the sign of the cross should be the symbol of how the oil was applied to his forehead. He felt like the oil should be in many places all over his head for healing.
He is a changed teenage boy! Sweet tears rolled down his face and he felt the intense love of Jesus and the Holy Spirit over him and enter into his head and heart. His migraines are gone.
I hope that helps answer the question Traci.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
61 02/22/08 12:10 AM | Comment Link |Jane - what is your way of making sense out of Mt 25? Where is the belief part expressed in this passage?
Also - Why did Jesus only talk about being born again once but he said follow me 33 times
Comment by: benjamin ady
62 02/22/08 1:20 AM | Comment Link |Can I just ask if we can also work on figuring out what everybody is talking about with this term “salvation” that keeps getting thrown around? It seems to need, for instance, a prepositional phrase, along the lines of “from ______”. And I suppose part of figuring that out also might be an object–that is, who or what is getting saved from whom or what? I just ask cause I suspect I’m thinking something different than you’re thinking =).
I mean, for instance, I wouldn’t mind a little salvation from my current back pain, and a whole group of salvation for the billion people in the world who don’t have access to clean potable water. And some salvation for Laos and Cambodia and Afghanistan and Lebanon from U.S. made unexploded cluster bomblets which litter the countryside. And maybe some salvation from the impending global climate crisis. These are the things I’m thinking of when I say salvation. Am I on the same track as everyone else? Or way off?
Comment by: Helen
63 02/22/08 4:04 AM | Comment Link |Benjamin wrote:
Thanks for bringing this up, Benjamin.
I’m confused why God would heal the migraines of one teenage boy (Jody shared about this) yet many other teenage boys are dying every day around the world. I’m happy for that one boy, yet it makes me wonder about God’s priorities and preferences. Does God like Americans more than people in impoverished countries - is that why we have more wealth (in general)?
Comment by: Jody
64 02/22/08 7:03 AM | Comment Link |Here is a dictionary definition of salvation … it is a saving or being saved; preservation from destruction; in theology, spiritual rescue from sin and death; saving of the soul through the atonement of Jesus; redemption.
Helen, I’m surprised by your last comment or accusations about God. I guess I’m confused now … do you believe in God, but are perplexed by misinformation you’ve received along your journey?
Or you do not believe in God, but like keep things interesting? Regardless, it is a good question.
Again, I can only speak on personal experience here.
Without a solid understanding of where your question comes from, I can say that a relationship and belief in God causes me to put absolute trust in his goodness and plan. Despite my feelings or circumstances which can be deceiving.
As hard as that might sound or appear in reality, I hold fast to the teaching of the Bible and know His plans are always perfect and good.
Why did he heal on boy and let another die? Only God knows the future results of these activities. That is where that whole concept of Faith plays a factor.
I know and acknowledge that doubt and confusion plagues us. These feelings are strong enough feelings that distract us from the pursuit of truth.
I would like to hear where you stand on your belief system.
Comment by: Helen
65 02/22/08 7:18 AM | Comment Link |Jody, I was a Christian for a long time (around 17 years) but now I’m almost an atheist, meaning, I couldn’t currently say I believe in God but neither do I deny God’s existence.
My questions are real - they are why I’m where I’m at today. I hope they don’t come across as accusatory or like I’m playing a game. If I had found answers which resolved them for me I would probably still be a Christian.
I’m familiar with how you trust God with what you don’t know and believe there is a perfect and good answer somehow - I did that for 17 years. But I reached a point where that became too hard for me to hold onto.
I’d rather not go into any more detail about my own beliefs/lack thereof here. I’m sorry if anything I said has been misleading. I appreciate your focus on showing true love to people.
Comment by: Jane Doe
66 02/22/08 7:32 AM | Comment Link |Jim
On question #1 MT 25 talks about the 10 virigns and the three servants. In the message of the virgins, they all had one thing in common. Virginity. But some were left out of the wedding because they were not watching for the bridegroom to return. In the parable of the talents, the same theme applies. They were all servants, 2 used what they were given “wisely” and one did not use his at all. Use what God has given you wisely and do not let your light (lamps) go out. Question # 2 Romans 3:27 “Can we boast then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? NO, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law. It is based on FAITH”. There are a lot of things in the bible that Jesus didn’t particularly talk about or expound on, (if you will). That does not make the rest of the bible void of truth. You can’t take just one part of a truth and make it to mans liking. If I could “work” my way to heaven, then again, His death was in vain. I agree that we should all be doing good works, I am just saying that works does not bring you salvation or real peace. That is what the bible teaches and this is why Isaiah 64-6 says “We are all infected and impure with sin. When we display our RIGHTEOUS DEEDS they are NOTHING BUT FILTHY RAGS. Sorry folks, but no matter how much good you do, it doesn’t count as salvation.
Comment by: Jody
67 02/22/08 8:08 AM | Comment Link |thanks Helen,
this is why I really enjoy this blog. If you haven’t already figured out, this is my first “blog” experience, so I too need to apologize my way through it as I’m not a stellar communicator. Thanks for sharing.
I would have to say that the most difficult concept to accept in the Christian journey is the idea of surrendering of ones self to God. And to cling to God’s promises. Abraham was known for his unbelievable faith, trust and surrender to God’s promises. All of which came true, but not many in his lifetime.
I don’t think many christians have honestly done that, but won’t admit it.
Another way to view it is … many claim to believe in Jesus. (Even Satan believes in Him). But I choose to believe Him. Not an easy thing to do in today’s society when all questions demand an answer.
Until then, we just keep asking and seeking and LOVING along the way. I’m glad all parties have choosen the higher road in the blog site. I’m glad to see that you are clearly able to see above a lot of fallible rheatoric and keep pressing for truth.
Comment by: Helen
68 02/22/08 8:23 AM | Comment Link |Jane I think Jim had Matthew 25:31-46 in mind where Jesus seems to be determining the eternal destiny of people based on how they treated others (’works’) and doesn’t mention their faith. Do you have any comments on that passage?
Jody, thank you for jumping into blogging and for being able to remain friendly in spite of reading various things you don’t agree with here. It would be boring if we all already agreed with each other :).
Comment by: Claudia
69 02/22/08 9:05 AM | Comment Link |Jody, in the interests of cutting through some of the rhetoric, can you help me reconcile your implied condemnation of questioning (”today’s society when all questions demand an answer”)–and I’m wondering what earlier period of time/society you’re thinking of, in which questions were asked for some reason other than to solicit answers–and your praise of folks “pressing for truth?” The way this reads to me, you’re saying it’s admirable to press for answers but only within certain preset (Biblical?) parameters. That about right?
Unless you are living according to every one of the precepts laid out in the Old Testament, you’re already making decisions about which part of that book are “true” or not. Even the devil, after all, can quote scripture to his benefit, right?
And that’s where the concept of empathy plays a factor, at least for me. So God lets these kids (I’m going back to Benjamin’s post, where he makes excellent points about suffering, justice, and entire populations, rather than a kind of tit-for-tat, one kid for another trade-off) get their legs blown off for some future good? If I believe that God’s omnipotent, then I believe he can make that future good happen without those kids suffering, but he’s going that route anyway. Which would make him a sadist. If I find out tomorrow that THAT God exists? I’m pulling on my green tights and heading to Sherwood with the rest of the merry men.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
70 02/22/08 9:40 AM | Comment Link |Jane
Sorry about not being more specific.
Helen is right - the section about what people typically call the Last Judgement
Comment by: benjamin ady
71 02/22/08 10:57 AM | Comment Link |I can kind of understand this. When I read it, I thought “Yeah, and that’s the most difficult thing about being a Muslim as well!” I thought that because the idea of becoming a Muslim has been in my mind over the past months. I find something attractive there. And yet that first pillar–the whole surrender thing–I just couldn’t do that. I’m just generally too pissed off at the only concept of God which makes sense to me.
Comment by: Jeannie
72 02/22/08 12:57 PM | Comment Link |Hi Jim,
Are you saying mankind will be judged on works alone or is faith in Jesus’ substitutionary atonement required too?
I hope my question isn’t loaded with too many assumptions?
Thanks,
Jeannie
Comment by: Jane Doe
73 02/22/08 2:00 PM | Comment Link |Helen and Jim
Oh man I wrote a thesis on the wrong verses! Will be back after some study..
Comment by: Jane Doe
74 02/22/08 2:24 PM | Comment Link |He is talking about the seperation of sheeps and goats, the saved and the unsaved, the righteous and the unrighteous. This proves my point, that even though you feed the hungry, gave water to the thirsty etc., that if you are UNRIGHTEOUS you are seperated to etermal punishment, but the righteous to etermal life. So if Jesus says I am hungry, I was thirsty, I was a stranger and you would not let me in, then the righteous better believe that they are to be doing the things He commanded, but it does not save you or bring you salvation. Jesus did not say ” my goats hear my voice and obey”, He said “My SHEEP hear my voice and obey”. It does not matter to Him what the unrighteous do, it earns them nothing in His eyes. When God looks down He is looking for that covering of His Sons blood applied to the doorposts of our hearts. Otherwise , all He sees is sin. I hope I am addressing the correct scripture this time, although the last one wasn’t too shabby. ; )
Comment by: Claudia
75 02/22/08 3:09 PM | Comment Link |You can see, right, why this makes him sound like a jerk?
Comment by: karen
76 02/22/08 3:15 PM | Comment Link |benj:
Actually, as I understand it, the very word “islam” means “submit.” So I think you’re in double-trouble there, Benj. Thankfully for Megs’ sake! ;-)
Comment by: Helen
77 02/22/08 3:23 PM | Comment Link |Jane thanks for your comments on the sheep and goats.
However I’m not seeing how the passage (Matthew 25:31-46) fits with what you are saying. When Jesus turns to the sheep he says “You’re going to heaven BECAUSE you fed the hungry etc i.e. BECAUSE of your works.” When he turns to the goats he says “You’re going to hell BECAUSE you didn’t feed the hungry i.e. because of your works.”
This passage says works are what salvation is based on - it’s the opposite of what you’re saying.
If Jesus said to the sheep “Thank you for feeding the hungry even though your salvation is nothing to do with you feeding them” and to the goats “you’re going to hell so no point in looking at whether you fed the hungry” then it would support what you’re saying.
But that’s not what Jesus said. Don’t Jesus’ words here matter? The word ‘because’ is right there in the text as part of what Jesus said isn’t it, linking those peoples’ eternal destinies with their works?
Comment by: Jane Doe
78 02/22/08 3:58 PM | Comment Link |Helen,
Lets look again at this and try to figure out the meaning. He puts the Sheep (the righteous) on his right and the goats (the unrighteous) on his left, he tells the ones on his right that they have fed, gave water etc.,I think this shows that He expects us to do as he commanded which I will show you in a moment. But to the goats, those that do not know Him because they do not have salvation, he says (in so many words) to hell with you. He does not expect the goats to do as he commanded, does he? He said WHEN you did it to the least of these you did likewise to me,he did not say YOU MUST DO THIS TO HAVE SALVATION. He absolutely wants us to feed the poor etc. If it is by works we are saved, please explain to me why the cross? WHY THE CROSS?? I will end with his command to us (his church) in Matt 28:18. Go and make disciples of every nation, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. Teach these NEW DISCIPLES to obey all the commands I have given you. NEW DISCIPLES do not include unbeleivers. I look forward to your reply about the cross.
Comment by: Jeannie
79 02/22/08 5:53 PM | Comment Link |Hi Jim, Helen and Jane,
I am following your conversation with much interest. Jim and Helen bring up good points and questions regarding the sheep and goats of Matthew 25. I have often paused at this parable trying to reconcile grace-based salvation with works-based salvation.
I have been thinking this through and re-reading the passage in my Bible. I’m going to take a stab at this as best as I can with a 2 year old climbing all over me as I type :) I hope what I say makes sense.
In Matthew 25, the sheep are righteous and the goats are unrighteous. Now….how and why are the sheep righteous…and why are the goats unrighteous? I don’t think the verses Matthew 25:40 and 45 answer this question. Rather the answer to how one becomes righteous lies in the following passages:
1. Romans 3:22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
2. Romans 10:4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
3. 1 Corinthians 1:30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.
4. Galatians 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”
5. Philippians 3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith.
So assuming these passages are true, the sheep aren’t righteous because they clothed housed and fed the least of these. Rather the sheep are righteous because of their faith in Christ. Thus the goats are unrighteous because they did not have faith in Christ.
This premise is evident in the wording of Matthew 25:40 and 45. Matthew 25:40 says of the righteous sheep “Truly I tell you: ANYTHING [any little thing, the tiniest little thing] you did for one of my brothers here, however insignificant, you did for me.” Conversely, Matthew 25:45 says of the unrighteous goats, “Truly I tell you: ANYTHING you FAILED to do [the teeniest tiniest failure] for one of these, however insignificant, you failed to do for me.”
Under the scenario where Matthew 25:40 and 45 explains how righteousness is obtained, the standard in Matthew 25:40 is unbelievably low while the standard in Matthew 25:45 is unattainably high. These 2 verses actually contradict each other under this scenario where the standard for righteousness is feeding clothing and housing the poor (and giving a drink of water for that matter). (I hope this makes sense).
I mean, look at Matthew 25:45. Even the slightest omission immediately disqualifies the goats under the works-based scenario. Is the king being a jerk here like Claudia said? He would have to be under this scenario!
Why do the sheep get a free pass to gloryland for doing ANYTHING good for the least of these while the goats get a swift kick to eternal damnation for ANYTHING they failed to do for one of these, however insignificant? Basically the goats can’t do anything right. Any little sin of omission, and the goats are outta there. Any little good work, and the sheep are in like Flynn. Why the double standard????
Because there IS a double standard! (I’m not yelling, I’m just having a eureka moment…I’m a blonde lifetime Christian so forgive me for catching on so late) One standard is righteousness obtained by good works. The other standard is righteousness obtained by faith in Christ’s finished work on the cross.
The beauty of this is, we can choose which standard we want to be judged by. If we choose to be judged by our works, we are immediately relegated to the left side of the throne as goats and we’ll never make it unless we do EVERYTHING right. I mean, how many people do you have to feed and clothe and house and give water to in order to gain eternal life? Answer: ALL of them. IMPOSSIBLE.
I recall Paul’s words in Romans 3:10, “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.” I also think of the verse in Isaiah quoted by Jane where all our righteous works are as filthy rags.
But by simply having faith in Christ, according to the scriptures quoted above…(if you believe they are true), we are immediately declared righteous! This faith immediately relegates one to the right side of the throne as one of the righteous sheep where even the tiniest good deed is recognized and rewarded as done unto Him.
This is not to say that a believer shouldn’t do any good works. Good works naturally flow from a true believer’s joy of salvation. You know them by their fruit. However good works don’t save the believer, rather the belief validates the good works in the eyes of the King.
So saith the blonde.
Comment by: Helen
80 02/22/08 6:08 PM | Comment Link |Jane I don’t think we’re going to agree on this but thanks for sharing with me what you believe the passage means.
I understand that you don’t want to find a meaning in the passage which conflicts with your beliefs about the cross.
But I’m not comfortable with any meaning which doesn’t seem to fit what it says.
I don’t have any comments about the cross.
Comment by: Helen
81 02/22/08 6:57 PM | Comment Link |Thanks Jeannie. Did you type all that with a 2 year old climbing on you? Impressive :)
In the passage it seems to me that if ‘for’ means the goats go to hell ‘for’ failing to do the good works, then it also means the sheep go to heaven ‘for’ doing the good works. I understand why you’re bringing other passages to bear - but Jesus’ hearers didn’t have Paul’s letters - what would they have made of his words? How would they have known they were supposed to interpret them in light of some other teaching which showed they weren’t supposed to think Jesus meant the sheep went to heaven because of their good works?
Comment by: Jeannie
82 02/22/08 8:36 PM | Comment Link |Hi Helen,
Thanks for the compliment. Did I misspell saith? hmm… Yes my little one was on and off me the whole time and I had to stop and make dinner too and then come back to it….
Anyway, you ask a very good question about those hearing the words of Matthew 25 before Paul’s writings. What did they have to go by? Jesus own words, I guess, and the whole of the law and traditions which they had at the time…. the same law and traditions Paul had in making his conclusions in the letters I quoted. I would assume also, that Jesus probably said much more than is written, so in a sense, these folks had more to go by than we do and from the horses mouth at that so to speak.
The Bible speaks all throughout the old and new testament of those who have ears to hear and eyes to see. (Deut 29:4, Ezek 12:12, Job 42:5, Psalm 115, Psalm 135:15-18, Isaiah 6:10, Isaiah 11:3, Jer 5:21, Jer 6:10, Acts 7:51, Romans 11:8, Rev letters to the churches…whew!)
I think this ties in to why Jesus spoke in parables. Perhaps he was speaking in terms which those who had ears to hear would understand. I assume these would be the ones who see and hear by the spirit and not by the flesh…with a humble heart not puffed up with the pride of life (vain tradition, intellectual and social accomplishments and hypocrisy which blind the spirit and dull the conscience). In fact, Jesus in Matthew 13:13 says, “This is why I speak to them in parables: ‘Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.’” And Matthew 13:35 goes on to say, “So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: ‘I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world.’” See also Mark 4:9-12.
Please excuse the lengthy quote to follow, but I feel all these words of Jesus pertain to our discussion of whether good works alone merit eternal life according to Matthew 25…From Matthew 5 sermon on the mount….
17″Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
21″You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.”
So Jesus is basically saying the law still stands and you guys just can’t be righteous enough to get into the kingdom of heaven. But at the same time he implies in verse 19 that if you break a law and teach others to do so you could still be in the kingdom of heaven (though you will be considered “least”). BUT, if you are simply angry or merely call your brother a fool, you are in danger of the fire of hell.
This, to me, encapsulates the paradox of Matthew 25’s double standard….one of law where no one measures up and one of grace by faith where all who believe enter freely.
I don’t think Jesus was joking here in Matthew 5 about the fires of hell. He was turning universal ideas of mankind on their head. Man thinks, “If I’m a good guy, I’m ok. If I’m a great intellectual, artistic, business or social success, I’m even better off. If I’m an outstanding humanitarian, I’m really a great person. If I’m pious and religious and full of pompous tradition and philanthropic works, I can’t lose!”
But Jesus came and called us all hypocrites! And at the same time, he upheld the law while turning adherence to it and its traditions on its head. He set up the double standard of faith v. law by his own words. This was foreshadowed by Abraham who did not have the law, but whose faith was accounted to him as righteousness by which he gained the promise.
I’m probably making no sense now as my 2 year old has gone to sleep and I am writing with my laptop on my empty lap.
Sorry for the long post, but this is from my heart.
Comment by: Jane Doe
83 02/22/08 9:29 PM | Comment Link |Helen,
It is not that I don’t WANT to find a meaning in the passage that conflicts with my belief about the cross, it is just that what you are saying is in conflict with the message of the cross that is taught thruout the bible. I was disappointed that you didn’t comment on the cross. Why not? Is it that you don’t understand it or that it is so reproachable to you that you can’t discuss it, or perhaps you may be touched in a way you really don’t want to be touched? In order for you to convince someone of the opposite teaching (grace vs works) you have to discredit one or the other. Go ahead, I’m a big girl, I can take it!
Comment by: Jane Doe
84 02/22/08 9:40 PM | Comment Link |Jeannie, WOW! Very good comments, I think this is what Paul referred to as the meat of the word and not milk. Great conversation here..with many good questions too. You may be a “Jeannie come lately blonde” but aren’t we all? I don’t know of any that have it all!
Comment by: benjamin ady
85 02/23/08 12:55 AM | Comment Link |Jeannie, Helen, Jane,
thankyou for the dialogue. It’s really fascinating for me to follow as 10 years ago I would have very strongly made the same arguments (and I mean “lines of reasoning–not something with a bad connotation) as Jeannie and Jane. And now I’m more of a mind with Helen, and my former arguments really strike me as absurd. I guess it’s fair to say I’ve pretty much thrown out Paul. I like the way Jesus looks a lot better when i don’t have to look through the Paul glasses.
I think if you take off the Paul glasses, you get a totally different view of Jesus.
Kind of like a new prescription. it works better for me =)
Your entry into the kindgom being based on your actions appears all over the place in Jesus teachings, not just this story in Matthew 25. I mean his teachings are *rife* with it. Entry is based on something *altogether* different than the somewhat changed entry ticket we’ve developed with the help of Paul and 2000 years of church history.
*If* I ever decided to be a follower of Jesus again, I’d be a lot more interested in his actual take on these things than on Paul’s take, or the church fathers’ take, or current evangelical takes. I think if I had taken that tack a while ago, I might not have so altogether stopped being a follower of Jesus. Of course that purely hypothetical and can’t be tested =).
One of my very favorite Christian authors, George Macdonald (C.S. Lewis’ spiritual mentor), said this about following Christ. He said the deal is that you have to ask yourslef what have you done today expressly because Jesus told you to. NOT because something you did happened to line up with something Jesus told you to do, but rather that you did it *because* he told you to. And if you don’t have an answer to this question, how can you call yourself a disciple (follower).
Back when I was Christian, I definitely wasn’t a Christ follower under this definition. And I believed all that wordiness of explanations about Matthew 25. I don’t think I was doing myself or anyone else much good really.
Comment by: Helen
86 02/23/08 6:12 AM | Comment Link |Jeannie, a little creative spelling adds interest to the conversation :). What you say makes sense, to me, sort of, in that obviously grace is better than an impossible standard - except a) why didn’t God, who knows everything, notice his standard was impossible and set a more reasonable one? and b) the grace is horribly conditional because people have to believe in God (for some reason) to receive it. I like the sheep and goats passage because no-one had to believe anything. For some people works is doable, belief is not. For them the standard got even more impossible when belief superceded works. It only got easier for people who can believe in things (people) they can’t see.
If the sheep and goats passage sets an impossibly high standard when taken 100% literally, all you have to do to make it reasonable is have the King be as reasonable as a decent human being. Decent human beings who request something accept the request being carried out to the best of the person’s ability. Maybe Jesus expected people who heard the sheep and the goats to assume the King was decent. Decent yet definitely caring about works not faith.
Jane, about the cross - if I were to comment then I’d say a) if it’s true that it was necessary for Jesus to die for me and he did it out of love for me then that was kind of him b) however, it doesn’t make sense to me that the only option for an all-powerful God was to set an impossible standard for humans that required the painful death of his son/him to do anything about it. That makes me wonder if it’s really true or rather the best attempt of people to fit together some old stories about God and about a guy who irritated some religious authorities of his day enough that they got him crucified, into one consistent belief system. Stories which were written over a long period of time by a number of different people. Stories which - to me - don’t seem to fit together supremely well. Hence Christians have been arguing for 2000 or so years about every aspect of Christianity - and those arguments are still going strong.
That’s what I think about the cross. You asked “WHY THE CROSS??” Why indeed. The Bible says “forgive as Christ forgave you”. If we can forgive without anyone making a sacrifice to us, why can’t God?
Benjamin here’s how far I have come: when I first read George MacDonald’s fiction (from which I could infer his theology) he focused on ‘works’ so much that I wondered if he really understood ‘The Gospel’. Now I think he understood it better than I did.
Comment by: Jane Doe
87 02/23/08 7:46 AM | Comment Link |I know Jeannie will answer you Helen, but I can’t keep my mouth shut (or in this case my fingers off the kepboard) so I want to comment on a couple of things.
You said a.)Why didnt God know his standard was impossible? He did know it was impossible and that is why He sent His son. Since I am not God, I cannot & certainly will not pretend to have all the answers. I do know it was His plan and not mine, and that He knew from the beginning how this story would unfold. I guess that is where faith comes in. Its like when I was a little kid, anything my parents told me was true, because I trusted them and believed in them. I don’t think we necessarily need all the answers, sometimes we just need to trust Him and believe what He said and is saying today. As far as the Cross, there was a time when it made no sense to me either as to why He had to die this way, but I think the short answer is, How else could God get thru to our hardened hearts? Could He have done it by burning sage grass on top of a far away mountain? I doubt that would get anyone’s attention. Helen, the only reason we can forgive without sacrifice, is because He was the sacrifice, He did it ALL on the cross, for us, for you. It is a matter of simple child like faith. Adults tend to make everything so complicated and over intelectualized (i spelled that wrong but you get it.) The 12 disciples were not Harvard Scholars, they simply believed. I pray someday that you will stop trying to reason all these things in your head and just hear with your heart. I am not saying that as a “popoff” remark, but with all sincerity from my heart. I think people miss the very best part of life without God. He gives peace and joy that you can find nowhere else but in Him.
Comment by: Helen
88 02/23/08 8:22 AM | Comment Link |Jane I don’t mind that you responded to my comments to Jeannie - this is an open conversation.
Jane the Bible says ‘test all things’ and I happen to agree with that. Trying to reason them out is part of that testing process.
I don’t even know what ‘hearing with my heart’ means. I know I have emotional responses to ideas. I am not convinced there is anything inaudible to be heard beyond my own thoughts.
Simple childlike faith sounds like a dangerous concept to me. What stops a person with simple childlike faith from flying planes into buildings when someone says “this is what God wants you to do”? If they can use their reason they might figure out what’s wrong with that. If they can’t (and you’re praying I stop using mine) I’m not sure how they would know.
If Jesus doesn’t want me to use my reasoning ability then I have to wonder why God created me able to reason.
Comment by: Jane Doe
89 02/23/08 9:05 AM | Comment Link |There you go again trying to reason out faith and making me hurt my head to try to answer your very difficult and sensible question, even though it lacks faith, it makes sense. But only on a human level. There is so much more to what you are saying than there is room to answer. Jesus told us to become like children in our faith. If we are listening to the Holy Spirit I don’t think there is a danger in any of us flying airplanes into buildings. (side note) (Islam is an extreme “religion” and I am talking about faith, not religion, and they follow Allah , not God Jehova, here is a testing of the spirits). I often think that one of the greatest miracles of the past 2 centuries was George Washington Carver. He showed unbridled faith that God was going to show him something just because he asked Him to. We do not need to fear that God is going to direct us on the wrong path, He is our Father and loves us. I am not praying that you stop using your head or reasoning , I am only praying that you hear with your heart a little. He gave you the power to reason so you can have the free will of choice. Faith moves mountains and we could all use a little extra now and then. There is another voice to hear besides our own,(hearing with your heart) but you have to be willing to hear it and then obey. Read the entire book of Romans, God had to establish a standard to identify sin, because without it (the law) or the “standard” there is no way to identify sin. This book also explains the diferences between works and grace. So just ask God to show you and He will, and speaking of faith, I really need a peanutbutter sandwich! ( see how faith works?) LOL!
Comment by: Jeannie
90 02/23/08 9:28 AM | Comment Link |Good morning Helen and Benjamin,
What you guys have to say is SO valid and important. I covet and pray for the wisdom and intellect to answer all your objections and questions so you might believe (and I totally don’t mean that condescendingly). But who am I to know and speak on such things except that my heart burns with the joy of salvation.
What you guys bring up so clearly and remarkably sums up thoughts we all have (I would venture to say). For example, Helen asks, “why didn’t God, who knows everything, notice his standard was impossible and set a more reasonable one?”
Yes, you are right! God does know everything. And he did recognize his standard was impossible. So he gave the law with all its minutiae and heavy requirements. This was so mankind would recognize what God already knew….that His standard was impossible.
But why didn’t God just change his standard? Well, to do so, God would have to change Himself….his very nature as holy and perfect…thus God would cease to exist. If this happened, all of creation would cease as well. The Bible says God is faithful and unchanging. The Bible also says Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever…and that He was there in the beginning, that He’s the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End (in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God). So God knew the end from beginning and the paradox of it all…his unattainably high standard and unchanging nature.
I AM. My human mind cannot grasp this….and God knows my mind and heart. Think of a really good father or teacher who has a real gift with children. A truly gifted parent or teacher has a way of demonstrating an unchangeable fact to a child in a way that the child is involved in developing the understanding and respect for this unchangeable fact by participating in its discovery. God has done this with us by giving us the law to demonstrate his unattainably high standard and His Son in order to reconcile us to Him. The incarnation as Jesus was God’s way of changing himself and his standard without changing himself and his standard…if that makes sense….?
Helen says, “the grace is horribly conditional because people have to believe in God (for some reason) to receive it.” The idea of having to believe also demonstrates God’s unchanging holy nature. To believe, is an affront to our pride. But because God is holy and perfect, He is the only one to be exalted…not ourselves. Pride exalts ourselves and is an affront to God. You have made it clear you would rather perform any myriad of good works, jumping through hoops even, for salvation as long as you don’t have to believe. This is a perfect demonstration of human pride….how dare God ask ME to surrender MY thoughts and doubts. Besides, look at how good I am anyway. I’ve done so many good things…I deserve to be recognized.
Helen says, “all you have to do to make it reasonable is have the King be as reasonable as a decent human being.” This is what man has always tried to do throughout the ages…recreate God in man’s image and according to man’s standards. Think of how the Bible describes God’s abhorrence toward graven images and idols. God knew what lengths he had to go through to accommodate the impossible standard and his unchanging nature…sacrificing Himself/Jesus/His Son. God is highly offended when man tries to reinvent HIM and then believe their own fiction when HIS FACT is unchangeable.
I think I’ve ventured way into philosophy and I’m no philosopher! God’s not just a reasonable guy…don’t try to make him into your image. He’s GOD. He’s Holy. He never changes, but He loves you so much!
my brain hurts and I hope what I’ve said makes sense and was not offensive to you…I am not criticizing you or Benjamin at all whatsoever…you guys think just like I do…we’re human.
I can’t say anything to convince you to believe. That is a decision only you have the power to make. But you must humble yourself first and sacrifice your pride and CHOOSE to believe despite what you see with your human eyes and know with your human mind. Jesus said, blessed are those who believe and have not seen.
I think if you pray and ask God in earnest to help you believe, He will.
Gotta go. I hope this is helpful and contributes to the discussion despite its length and wordiness.
Peace out.
Comment by: Helen
91 02/23/08 9:31 AM | Comment Link |Sorry I made your head hurt, Jane!
I led a Bible study discussion group on the entire book of Romans once (in Bible Study Fellowship).
I don’t get the peanut butter sandwich/faith connection but I hope it helps your headache!
Comment by: Jane Doe
92 02/23/08 9:46 AM | Comment Link |Benjamin,
You have the right answer, it is in Jesus. I won’t comment on Paul, but I think if you get Jesus’ take before anyone elses, the rest will fall into place.
Comment by: Jane Doe
93 02/23/08 9:48 AM | Comment Link |George Washington Carver invented peanutbutter, he asked God what he could do with sucha little peanut. His faith has fed me all my life! ;)
Comment by: Claudia
94 02/23/08 10:21 AM | Comment Link |Carver didn’t actually invent peanut butter. (Wikipedia article, but a well-referenced one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peanut_butter)
OK, then, let’s use a Christian example–what’s to stop someone with a simple childlike faith from shooting a doctor in cold blood?
And how do you know that that headache isn’t the Holy Spirit encouraging you to use the ability to reason that God blessed you with?
Comment by: Helen
95 02/23/08 10:33 AM | Comment Link |Oh, of course - Carver and peanuts! Thanks for reminding me :)
Comment by: Helen
96 02/23/08 10:51 AM | Comment Link |Jeannie wrote:
I’m never going to believe what contradicts what my eyes see and my mind reasons, Jeannie. It’s not even possible for me to do that. It’s not a choice as you suppose, any more than it’s a choice for you to look out the window, see the sun shining and believe it’s raining. I don’t think you could do that. Neither could I decide to believe in the God you believe in.
Well…it is a little offensive that you are attributing my lack of belief to sinful pride, supposing it’s a choice, whereas it isn’t a choice. I’m not saying you’re an offensive person but to me this is an offensive belief, if I am truly honest with you.
But I don’t even want to believe things which seem unfair and make no sense to me.
I don’t want to believe in a God who, according to the Bible, makes man in his image and then is highly offended if men (and women) wonder why God seems less fair and just than they are.
I’m holding out for a better God than that. One that I can affirm is good and perfect with my reasoning instead of having to ’surrender’ to being told he’s good and perfect when my reasoning indicates otherwise.
I still couldn’t choose to believe but at least I might want to if I run across that God.
Comment by: Lisa
97 02/23/08 10:55 AM |