Beth and Traci: One of These Things Is Not Like the Others
The last time I sat in a church sanctuary and talked to 300 Christians about being an atheist was a week ago. The time before that was never.
Because we live in a very Christian state in this very Christian nation and within it, a very Christian suburb, my husband’s first question when I told him I’d been invited to talk about the Beth and Traci project at Grace Community Church was, “Are people going to burn down our house?”
I laughed at that. He said, “No. Seriously.”
Arson was doubtful before and more so after I experienced the warmth of the crowd. And if our son is ostracized from play group, it’s less likely to be because his mother is recognized in Starbucks as “Beth’s atheist friend” than because of the sailor’s mouth he picked up from a certain member of our family. (Fine. Also Beth’s atheist friend.)
So I went with Beth and sat with her on the stage in her church, and we were interviewed by her pastor. Under torture of BSF, I couldn’t tell you what happened on stage — can’t fix on a damned thing through the blur of my stage fright. (But what’s this? Why, it’s a podcast of the interview.)
After the meeting ended, my plan to run out the door and into the loving embrace of a martini was thwarted by a wall of well-wishers. They thanked us for coming and told me I was brave, which seems backward, given that Beth was consorting with godless me right there in front of God and her fellow congregants — most of whom I’ll never see again but many of whom she mingles with every week.
Through the lingerers a woman with exclamation points for eyes bounded up and spilled, “One of my good friends is a Satan-worshiper and a prostitute!”
My own eyes became exclamation points. Question marks. Exclamation points. As my face edged back toward composure, my mind went to the Christian ladies who didn’t bat an eye when Beth introduced me as an atheist at our first event, and I flushed to once again recognize myself as Judgey McJudgerson Judgepants.
“I guess . . . people find . . . all sorts of . . . reasons . . . to . . . connect?” I finally sputtered. A late attempt at grace.
I just wanted a cocktail, not to suck down my own inglorious prejudice in a forum where minutes earlier I’d been lauded for my openmindedness.
Late-breaking news: Video posted here. Start at about minute 37 for Jim himself and then Beth and me.
Comment by: Friendly Atheist » Traci the Atheist and 300 Christians
1 02/4/08 10:25 PM | Comment Link |[...] (of Traci and Beth), an atheist, spoke at a church in front of over 300 Christians about her beliefs last [...]
Comment by: Helen
2 02/5/08 6:46 AM | Comment Link |Traci these are the things I love about the podcast:
1. You and Beth were awesome - fun, engaging, articulate
2. Dave the pastor was absolutely respectful of you (I have heard many interviews where Christians have been much less respectful of an atheist - NOT that that’s all you are, of course)
3. You had a very responsive audience who liked you - lots of audible audience laughing
4. The moment after the PMS reference was THE best - where Dave had no idea how to respond
About being judgmental: I only wish everyone was as aware as you of their tendency to be judgmental.
Comment by: Lisa
3 02/5/08 8:59 AM | Comment Link |I’ll have to listen to the podcast later, only have a sec between clients to consume this new addiction of your blog. I just want to say to Traci, I love your writing style. You crack me up every time. Thanks for that.
Comment by: karen
4 02/5/08 12:23 PM | Comment Link |ROTFLMAO! That’s hilarious. You’ll be telling that story forever. ;-)
Comment by: Traci
5 02/5/08 1:17 PM | Comment Link |It’s the shock-factor winner of our travels so far, for sure.
Comment by: Claudia
6 02/5/08 2:45 PM | Comment Link |Just watched the video. You two are adorable. Way to walk your talk, both of you!
Traci, I think your first reaction to “Hey, some of my best friends are Satanist whores!” isn’t necessarily an inappropriately judge-y one. Even if her intention was to point out that people with really disparate, ahem, interests can be friends, any reasonably socialized adult should recognize that that comment would imply a parallel between your atheism and her friend’s goat-slaughtering harlotry. So, at best, the comment’s tactless; middling-best, self-aggrandizing; and worst, well, you actually did get compared to a devil-worshipping hooker.
I say we make T-shirts.
Comment by: Beth Bates
7 02/5/08 7:31 PM | Comment Link |Adult L for me
Comment by: Lisa
8 02/8/08 9:17 AM | Comment Link |Traci, I have a question for you, not to challenge you, but truly out of curiosity and my own seeking. Let me preface it with … Sometimes I wonder what the harm in belief is. Why not just go with it. what does it hurt, if it feels good? So it made me wonder, what made you choose not to believe. Just not enough evidence to bother? Is there pain involved in believing? Do you simply consider it weak minded, and know that you are enough to control your world? Is it just for silly emotional people? Does it just not cross your mind?
Please take this with the best of intentions of just wanting to understand.
I guess I’d like Helen and anyone else to chime in too.
ps Traci–when I see you next, I’d love to talk about gardening and food.
Comment by: Helen
9 02/8/08 10:59 AM | Comment Link |Lisa, I didn’t choose not to believe - or rather, I didn’t choose to have doubts.
The choices I made - such as to stop praying - were based on the reality that praying to someone whose existence I had doubts about was stressful. It was stressful in the same way it would be stressful to arrange a meeting with someone who routinely didn’t show up. Or to be married to someone you couldn’t trust, perhaps.
Anyway so while I did make behavior choices, those were driven by the ramifications of doubts I did not choose to have. Does that make sense?
Lisa if I said to you “why not choose not to believe” - do you see that as a choice you could make?
Comment by: Traci
10 02/8/08 2:34 PM | Comment Link |LISA: Interesting question.
I think first off, that “what’s it hurt if it feels good” is pretty obviously dangerous. My college experience is Exhibit A. It’s also disastrous and — ahem — weak-minded to chip away at your own personal philosophy to cover your salvation bases or because it feels good.
But maybe you’re approaching that question as if faith were inherently good, and my opinion is that it’s inherently not good because it requires the believer to push aside everything he knows to be true and make the leap that’s so exalted. To me, that leap is like closing my eyes and jumping into the Grand Canyon. I know that it’s deep and that gravity is going to plummet me into the rocks at the bottom and that my bones are breakable. Why would I act contrary to what I know? It’d be downright irresponsible. God’s a little different, I know, because I can’t prove that he doesn’t exist anymore than I can prove there’s no such thing as a unicorn, but everything in my existence so far says no to the God question.
You asked also about personality contributing to belief yesterday, and I suspect it might. I’m skeptical as hell, and I remember being skeptical even when I was a kid. (“An all-powerful being who’s everywhere and sees everything? I don’t think so.”) I don’t know that I chose not to believe. I just chose to face that I didn’t, which is hard because it puts you in such a small minority. Also you have to retrain yourself to acknowledge a sneeze with “Gesundheit” instead of “God bless you.”
I’m not comfortable calling belief weak-minded, but yeah, I do have a hard time with belief, especially when so many people give such flimsy explanations of it. (“The Bible tells me so.” “I just FEEL God.”)
People get something out of believing. I haven’t figured out yet what it is that they can’t get elsewhere. Unless it’s the harps. But obviously I can’t discount belief.
Is there pain in believing? I can’t answer that because I don’t. Believe. There’d be tremendous, identity-crushing pain in trying to fake it, though. And faking faith is the worst kind of hypocrisy. Not because faith is precious in my view but because it’s senseless.
Food and gardening are good. We can also talk about Javier Bardem when next we meet. Did you see No Country for Old Men? Holy crap.
Comment by: karen
11 02/8/08 3:13 PM | Comment Link |I agree that belief isn’t a choice one makes, it’s something that you either come to adopt or don’t based on a whole series of criteria. Faking belief would be difficult if not devastating emotionally. And certainly if there’s a god, he wouldn’t be fooled by outward pretensions of belief that lacked sincerity.
I do, too. The only good data I’ve seen on this is a small bit (pgs 82-83) in Michael Shermer’s “How We Believe,” in which he talks about certain personality types and how they are or aren’t correlated with levels of religiosity in a study he references. It’s very interesting.
Damn - I’m still working on that one! It usually comes out, “God … zundheit,” which sounds like I’m cussing them out instead of the opposite. German just doesn’t quite roll off the tongue easily.
Comment by: Traci
12 02/8/08 3:27 PM | Comment Link |KAREN: You can also go the Seinfeld route: “You are soooo good-looking.” Rolls off the tongue a little easier than the German.
Comment by: Lisa
13 02/9/08 7:30 AM | Comment Link |Helen wrote, “The choices I made - such as to stop praying - were based on the reality that praying to someone whose existence I had doubts about was stressful. It was stressful in the same way it would be stressful to arrange a meeting with someone who routinely didn’t show up. Or to be married to someone you couldn’t trust, perhaps….Lisa if I said to you “why not choose not to believe” - do you see that as a choice you could make?”
I actually have contemplated that at different points in my life. I get what you’re saying. Maybe belief or unbelief also has to do with what point in your life you have exposure, then of course what kind of people are involved with your exposure. My experience growing up probably messed with my head enough that causes me to constantly question and wonder, but the thought of completely rejecting what I’m so familiar with feels so lonely and empty.
About prayer…What if we think of it all differently? What if prayer is not about requests, but just about keeping us in a constant state of gratitude?
Traci wrote, “I think first off, that “what’s it hurt if it feels good” is pretty obviously dangerous.”
I hadn’t really thought of it in those terms.
Karen and Traci, I get what you’re saying and respect and appreciate it.
Actually, Traci’s comment about “not necessarily CHOOSING not to believe, just facing that you don’t” makes the most sense
Traci said, “You asked also about personality contributing to belief yesterday, and I suspect it might. I’m skeptical as hell, and I remember being skeptical even when I was a kid.’
I’m right there with ya sister
“Also you have to retrain yourself to acknowledge a sneeze with “Gesundheit” instead of “God bless you.”
I grew up with “Gesundheit” but then decided that if communication is key in relationship than I better ” bless” people
I’m not comfortable calling belief weak-minded, but yeah, I do have a hard time with belief, especially when so many people give such flimsy explanations of it. (“The Bible tells me so.” “I just FEEL God.”)
I totally get that–I really hate the flip remarks Christians make without considering how a person feels…
the worst offenders…”must have been God’s will” and “everything happens for a reason”. I just want to gouge out my eyeballs every time I hear those comments.
Karen, I’ll look at that book, thanks
Comment by: Helen
14 02/9/08 8:08 AM | Comment Link |Lisa wrote:
Yes - that’s certainly an issue. I had no idea how I would manage ‘without God’ - but I didn’t have a choice if I couldn’t believe anymore and/or it was too stressful to try to be in a relationship with God.
I started reading an atheist discussion board so I could find out how atheists manage not to feel lonely and empty all the time. I knew they weren’t all miserable so I was sure they’d figured it out. I didn’t ask the question directly because I didn’t admit to my doubts on their board. I just chatted and thought about what they said and what was meaningful to them in life.
Yes - that works for me; I’d rather say ‘appreciation of life’ than ‘gratitude’ per se because gratitude needs Someone to be thankful to. (Also, ‘constant’ is maybe an unrealistically high bar, but I like the idea of being mindful of what’s going well in my life. It’s so easy to get consumed (ha ha - didn’t we discuss this word recently) with some relatively minor but current stressful issue.
Although it works for me (and others) I think lots of people wouldn’t accept it as ‘prayer’.
Comment by: Lisa
15 02/9/08 9:15 AM | Comment Link |Traci–”You can also go the Seinfeld route: “You are soooo good-looking.” Rolls off the tongue a little easier than the German.”
You could help build my self esteem with that one, my allergies are SOOOO bad lately.