Beth and Traci: Checking in
with Traci Cumbay and Beth Bates
Traci (atheist) and her friend Beth (Christian) have recently been attending Christian women’s meetings together. They’ve been writing about their experiences on our ChurchRater blog.
Traci, how’s your churchification going so far? Is it what you expected?
Yes. Also no. I did expect to feel baffled, and I often do. I expected people to be very alarmed by my being an atheist, but that mostly has not been the case.
How about you, Beth – what’s the experience been like for you?
Fun, fun, and more fun. Just fun. And really sort of out of body. I guess I’m stunned that legalists still lurk in evangelical Christendom. It boggles my mind that Christians still have no clue about God’s grace. I’ll get back to you when it’s all over.
Traci and Beth, I’m guessing you didn’t meet each other at church. How did you become friends?
Traci: The holy spirit bought us together, of course. Actually it was the magic of the Internet. Beth and I work for the same magazine, and she wrote to me after both our names showed up on an e-mail from the editor. I mention it being divinely arranged because Beth and I actually had that conversation. She said something like, “You have to wonder how two so different women came together. Seems like someone was clearing a path.” But really we’re not that different. Except that she has a little crush on Stephen Colbert, and I heart Jon Stewart.
Beth: I met Traci on her cul-de-sac while searching for my missing cat Gary. I found him in the nick of time, turns out, because she was about to bring him inside to boil him with the other kittens. Nah. Traci’s story is true. I wrote her a fan letter last spring and two months later she moved into my neighborhood. Gary’s fine.
Has the difference in beliefs between you ever been an ‘issue’ in your friendship?
Traci: Nah. Sometimes Beth says something vaguely churchy and it kind of startles me just because most people I know don’t talk like that, but that’s the extent of it from this side.
Beth: Whew, I’m relieved it’s just “vaguely churchy,” but l’ll have to work on that. Mostly, no. I don’t think so. I can’t get away with as much with her. You know, with other believers we can get a little lazy, I think because - hey - all’s forgiven, right? There’s no cheap grace between Traci and me. And I don’t go to her for prayer. But I have other specialists for that. I go to Traci for big laughs, writing help and bloody marys. I do worry that my beliefs annoy or grate on her. Or that she must think I’m an idiot or crazy to believe that Jesus is who the Bible says He is.
Why did you decide to go to Christian women’s meetings together?
Traci: I was curious. And it scared the shit out of me, which also made it intriguing. I had no idea what happened in one of these meetings and no idea how a roomful of Christian women would react to an atheist in their midst. I certainly wouldn’t blame them for being annoyed or unwelcoming.
Beth: Sunday morning church visits had already been done (Jim and Casper). And women’s ministry events - studies, luncheons, retreats - can be unwelcoming and weird even for believers. But they can also be beautiful. I wanted to take my atheist friend into a world where women go to meet Jesus and see it from her perspective.
Were either of you nervous about going? If so what were your concerns?
Traci: I was extremely nervous for our first meeting but I haven’t been nervous since. I couldn’t picture it, couldn’t form in my mind any notion of what it would be like, so that was nerve-wracking. And I really expected people to be put off by me.
Beth: Not too nervous. Just when we showed up on BSF Guest Day feeling like spies.
Which have been your favorite and least favorite moments so far?
Traci: One of the women at Tabernacle Presbyterian greeted my introducing myself as an atheist with “Some of my best friends are atheists. I’ve been there, too. Might be again this week.” That cracked me up and made me feel like I was completely welcome in the group. Least favorite? After Beth and I were interviewed on stage at her church, a woman came up to me and said very enthusiastically, “One of my best friends is a Satan-worshiper and a prostitute!” I had no idea what to do with that information. Did she think atheism and satan-worshiping were the same thing? Did she imagine that as an atheist I couldn’t have morals? Or — and this is what I hope — was she just making the point that you can be friends with people and find a connection even in the most extreme conditions?
Beth: Ditto Traci.
What’s the biggest thing you’ve learned?
Traci: That I am a judgmental bitch. When you limit yourself to hanging out with people who think the same way you do, it’s easy to fancy yourself understanding and open, but I have found out that I’m not. I really have to keep an eye on my snap-judgment impulses, especially when I hear people bust out those bromides of religion: “It’s in God’s hands” “It’s his will,” and that stuff. I have never discounted Christians wholesale because I know that there are awesome, thoughtful people and complete assholes in any bunch. But being in these situations has made me realize how very resistant I am to the messages of Christianity and to the people who deliver them.
Beth: So far, just four visits into our project, I feel like the biggest thing I’ve gotten a grasp on is just how brave my friend Traci is.
Traci: Man, I’m uncomfortable with that. I think it’s much braver for her — someone inside the Christian loop — to align herself with an atheist.
Have you seen a different side of each other at these meetings? Do you think going to them has changed your friendship at all?
Traci: No. As far as I can tell, Beth’s always Beth, and thank goodness for that. The only change the project has brought is that now there’s a work element in our friendship, and that’s kind of too bad. Beth has to stay on me to get me to find time for meetings and push me to post because we started this project during a very busy work time for me. Fortunately we’ve worked well together so far.
Beth: I feel like it’s solidified and defined our friendship.
Anything else you’d like to add?
Beth: I’m looking forward to more adventure and putting it in print. I’m grateful beyond words for the ChurchRater folks welcoming us to write on their blog. Also, this is cool: Traci and I have signed up to travel to Oregon for the Convergence women’s conference this month, which I predict will yield at least three chapters in the book. I doubt we’ll be able to boil it down for the blog, but we’ll try!
Comment by: chad e burns
1 02/4/08 11:55 AM | Comment Link |Hi ladies,
I have recently been made aware of your blog by Dave Dickerson’s site.
I too have started a blog of my own (http://roastedreligion.blogspot.com)
and I would love for you to give your feedback (both perspectives would be wonderful).
I would also like to know if you could shed any light on gathering an audience? How do you get people to read your blog? How do you get people to know you have a blog.
anyway, whenever you get time . . .
thanks for sharing your blog.
Comment by: Beth Bates
2 02/4/08 12:13 PM | Comment Link |Hi, Chad. Thanks for stopping by.
Hm. Advice on gathering an audience for your blog? Lemme see…
1) Start with a snappy blog title. Like “Roasted Religion,” for example. That’s pretty good.
And B) Get mentioned on Dave Dickerson’s site. Apparently this works.
Thanks, Dave. Whoever you are.
Seriously, I had never blogged till four or five weeks ago, so I have no advice to offer. Best of luck to you, Chad, in your blogging!
Comment by: Elaine
3 02/4/08 12:22 PM | Comment Link |Hi T&B, (not to be confused with J&C)
Just want to say hi. I love what the 2 of you have shared in this blog. I’ve tried not get hooked into this…because I have work to do and could get lost in this…and here I am…Jim told me to check it out…but…
I work with Jim H - I’m his virtual assistant :) - and live in Fairfield, OH - not tooo far from the Indy border. Any chance if I drove to Indy, the 2 of you would have time to connect with me?
I’d like to talk more about the whole women’s ministry thing. Having grown up in church and formerly on staff at a church - in another life so to speak - I have a real aversion to women’s ministry…and yet, hungering for more of the one good experience I did have about 4 years ago.
If you would share your perspective on what works and what doesn’t - may be I’d risk starting my own - non-church affiliated women’s ministry gathering…
what in the world am I talking about? I must be crazy. Did I actually write those words????
Comment by: JM
4 02/4/08 12:45 PM | Comment Link |Traci, as one of your oldest and dearest friends, I just want to point out that your judgmental bitchiness is one of my favorite of your attributes. It certainly fuels your humor, which is perhaps my absolute favorite of your attributes.
Also, while I think that prostitution is something you’d be successful at should you decide to give it a try, I’m glad for you that it’s not really “in your wheelhouse.” That said, in the spirit of this blog, you may consider giving Satan a chance as well.
Beth, It is refreshing to me that you, as an Evangelical, see yourself and non-legalistic. Given that the point of evangelism is simply to spread the Gospel, your attitude seems more in line with Christianity than other Evangelicals I have met or than the “Evangelical Movement” as represented in national media and politics. In the majority of those cases, Fundamentalism is truly the order of the day, and many speakers and apologists do get mired in parsing and comparing seemingly contradictory points in the codex while completely missing the big picture. Frankly, I don’t see a way to avoid legalistic thinking when your entire belief-set is based on the absolute veracity of any text.
Anyway, my point is, way to steer the ship back to reason, or at least seeing that faith and reason aren’t necessarily at odds.
Comment by: Beth Bates
5 02/4/08 1:30 PM | Comment Link |Arg. I cringe at the words “an Evangelical” in association with me. (Interesting Op Ed in the NY Times today about Evangelicals, by the way. Not a bad bit of PR.) I think of myself more as a woman who loves Jesus, since “she who has been forgiven much loves much.” I’m just another woman at the well, not bogged down in the legalism of black and white judging of others’ behaviors etc.
And I’d like to meet any old and dear friend of Traci who references the codex!
Comment by: Beth Bates
6 02/4/08 1:39 PM | Comment Link |Oh. And within the context of evangelicalism, “legalism” is an evil to avoid. Also called Phariseeism. That’s how I’m using it. Say more about the legalistic thinking you’re referring to.
Comment by: Beth Bates
7 02/4/08 1:49 PM | Comment Link |And this here idea of spreading the gospel topping the evangelical to do list makes me a terrific failure of an evangelical. I got demoted from an “advanced” Bible study for communicating my distaste for contact evangelism. I’m paddling to catch a new wave with many other evangelicals these days in a paradigm shift away from the idea of the gospel being a verbal, formulaic message to following Jesus’s example to love one another and serve “the least of these.” Jim H. articulates better what the heck I’m trying to say in the latest Off the Map Idealab post. Thanks for stopping by, JM.
Comment by: chad e burns
8 02/4/08 1:53 PM | Comment Link |I hope JM is truly Traci’s friend–otherwise–ouch . . .harsh! :)
I am very appreciative of Beth’s response. Unfortunately “evangelical” has come to mean something completely different in the zeitgeist.
But then I do wonder how a self-identifie “evangelical” would deal with having an atheist friend and not constantly try to proselytize to the point of harassment.
JM–I really liked your last point–I wrote something similar in my profile on my own blog.
Comment by: Beth Bates
9 02/4/08 1:57 PM | Comment Link |I’m not one of those evangelicals who feels the need to convert my friends. It’s no secret to her that I’d love for her to join the faith, or meet Jesus, or whatever, but I’m not so conservative that I can’t be friends with her if she’s not gonna “get saved.”
In fact, I guess I don’t call myself an evangelical. But I did grow up in the evangelical tradition. I don’t swallow it whole. I pick out the bones and gristle, I suppose, and the bits of green pepper I don’t like. I just dig Jesus. I’m more of a Lamottian Christian. Damn labels.
Comment by: chad e burns
10 02/4/08 1:59 PM | Comment Link |the least of these–Brilliant. I have said that for so long–the evangelical church I belonged to just didn’t seem to grab it.
I love the idea of the gospel moving from a verbal, formulaic message or “recipe for salvation”.
I hope Beth is righ and there truly will be a paradigm shift.
Comment by: karen
11 02/4/08 3:36 PM | Comment Link |Dave is an essayist and recovering fundamentalist. He’s also a tremendously talented writer who has had a couple of pieces about his fundy past on NPR’s This American Life. They are hilarious and well worth listening to!
He’s currently working on a book aimed at bringing atheists and Christians together. I believe the working title is “How To Love God Without Being a Jerk.” He’s previewing it on his blog, Bourbon Cowboy.
Comment by: JM
12 02/4/08 4:29 PM | Comment Link |Beth,
Be sure that you will meet me, as I’m likely to be in tow with Claudia, bound as we are in marital bliss.
Perhaps it was presumptuous of me to label you “an Evangelical,” as I was mostly intending to respond to your comment about legalism among them. I just assumed that that meant you counted yourself among those ranks.
I think we’re talking about the same thing: I was always down for the Essenes and their ascetic mysticism. Plus, they didn’t wear those big hats that you always see Pharisees pictured in. Like bishops, only Jewish.
Here again, I think that faith in the word usually gets in the way of faith in the Logos (if you catch my meaning) for most Fundamentalist Americans. People get hung up on this collection of third-hand remembrances of fourth-hand stories that have been pieced together from a variety of sources, translated, and bowlderized by religious and political groups, memorizing it and living by it that they forget (or never even get to) the purpose or the essential truths at its core. We can’t even say with certainty that Titus Andronicus is or isn’t the work of Shakespeare. (Leave me alone, Claudia. I’m making a point.) Why would we blame God for the King James Bible?
Make no mistake that it is not an insult when I say that the vast majority of what is contained in the Bible is myth or metaphor. That’s why it’s a better book than the DaVinci Code. Just think about what it says rather than repeat it. Faith is a beautiful thing, and faith in something is necessary for most of us to have full, rich lives. Jesus is a pretty good target for that faith for many because Christianity comes with a whole other set of values and culture that can help people integrate their faith into other aspects of their lives. But remember, there are two sides to this: with a deep enough faith, it doesn’t matter if something is true but faith alone does not make it so.
I’m way out on a tangent here, so I’ll get back to my other points:
Beth, you are an evangelist. When I say the Gospel, you know darn well that I mean more than just those four books plus Acts. I mean the actual Gospel, and if you have faith, you touch everyone you know with a little bit of that all the time. Without knowing you at all, I know that to be true because there’s no way in hell you would have gotten Traci to do this otherwise. Give yourself a little credit—now stop. Sin of Pride!
Also, if it seems I’m taking you to task or challenging you a lot for someone you’ve never met, it’s just that I’m looking out for Traci. There aren’t a whole lot of honest Secular Humanists out there these days - people with a real faith in the self and an appreciation for the power (for good, I swear) of the ego - and I need Traci to stay on my team!
I’ll be lurking….
Comment by: Lisa
13 02/4/08 6:25 PM | Comment Link |Beth wrote, “I just dig Jesus”. How can you not? People who don’t believe in God, believe in following the teachings of Jesus.
And if you believe he died to take on your sin, how can you not be in LOVE with him.
I’m curious what specifically makes you identify your self as Christian. Even my Muslim friends “dig” Jesus.
Comment by: Beth Bates
14 02/4/08 7:31 PM | Comment Link |Interesting. I heard recently from a pastor at my church that we have Muslims coming just to hear stories of Jesus. Because, apparently, they dig him too. I dig him and believe He’s God’s Son. From what I understand, and please run this by your Muslim friends for a fact-check, Allah cannot be a father. Whereas, as a Christian, I believe he is not only our “heavenly Father,” but He’s actually Jesus’s father. Therein lies the diff. Just because I said I dig him in that last post doesn’t mean I’m not “in LOVE” with him too. I can’t fit every word I feel in every post, darling Lisa. (Don’t worry, lurkers, I know her. I call her that.)
Comment by: Lisa
15 02/4/08 8:05 PM | Comment Link |Beth, didn’t mean to word it as if I didn’t think you LOVE Jesus, just wanted some clarification about what makes you follow him and not some other religious leader.
btw I DIG you!
Comment by: karen
16 02/5/08 12:21 PM | Comment Link |Just to live up to my angry and prickly atheist reputation, I’ll interrupt this Jesus-y Love Fest to point out that not everybody is cheerleading for the Big JC.
EbonMusings, who writes the thoughtful DaylightAtheist blog, recently did a post on the character of Jesus where he pointed out:
He goes on to point out Jesus’s teachings on slavery, mistreatment of women, hell and other disturbing things and concludes:
Comment by: chad e burns
17 02/5/08 12:50 PM | Comment Link |JM comments were really interesting. I think there is a lot to the propensity to myth in the Fundy/right movement (to avoid using the evangelical word and bastardizing it further.)
Excellent point JM–despite Claudia trying to stop/steer you. :)
Bil Maher was on Larry King last night and was really good–also talking about the propensity for myth that revolves around the religious right–from the white washed version of history to the pro-military flag waving, while sending more and more of our soldiers to die. Check my blog out tomorrow–I’ll be writing a piece on the myth making.
http://roastedreligion.blogspot.com
Comment by: chad e burns
18 02/5/08 12:52 PM | Comment Link |by the way–Beth-I must say your faith is rather comforting and inspiring. :)
Traci, I am sure you are no slacker on faith either, just in a different manner–and Beth has commented more here. :)
Comment by: chad e burns
19 02/5/08 12:57 PM | Comment Link |Let me correct myself (already) Traci, the fact that you can identify yourself as a “judgemental bitch” and identify your own areas of oversight and opportunities of growth is MY kind of faith. Bravo!!
It really should and could be viewed that way, couldn’t it–Two different sides of the faith coin.
another thought, another blog . . . :)
Comment by: Traci
20 02/5/08 1:14 PM | Comment Link |Here, here, Karen!
I was hoping for someone to bust up the big Jesus lovefest. Me? I gotta read the damned book first.
Comment by: Lisa
21 02/5/08 1:31 PM | Comment Link |Karen, I’ve never seen bible verses where Jesus himself condones mistreatment of women or slavery. Granted it’s been a long time since I’ve opened my bible and the things I’ve learned through the years through the teachings of men and women of faith were focused on the Love and Grace of Jesus. Perhaps you can enlighten me on verses you are familiar with that reveal his teachings to be other than wonderful?
Comment by: Lisa
22 02/5/08 1:52 PM | Comment Link |Karen, I have to apologize. I posted that last question before I read the blog link you added to your comment. I haven’t had time to go through all the scriptures listed, and might be curious to read the rest of the passage surrounding the ones listed. I do believe that one can take anything out of context and make it say whatever they want it to say. Maybe once Traci reads some of those passages, she can tell us if she has the same take on them.
Comment by: Claudia
23 02/5/08 1:56 PM | Comment Link |Lisa, if you follow the link Karen provided, there are some pretty good examples. Was surprised, in fact, to see omitted that the whole episode of Jesus telling his mother off at the wedding. As a former papist/Mary-worshipper, that one always ticked me off.
For what it’s worth, I did a quick survey of my co-workers about whether or not people (1) dig and (2) follow the teachings of Jesus. A quick run-down of responses:
1. “You realize I’m Jewish, right?”
2. “No, not really.”
3. “Are you kidding me?”
4. “I think I can report you to HR for asking me this.”
So maybe the “everyone believes in the teachings of Jesus” assumption isn’t one we should take, well, on faith.
Comment by: Helen
24 02/5/08 2:16 PM | Comment Link |Claudia, way to go finding out whether everyone ‘digs’ Jesus and follows his teachings.
Comment by: Lisa
25 02/5/08 4:56 PM | Comment Link |I guess what I meant by people beleiving his teachings, is that a lot of what we consider right and good and moral, are things that Jesus taught about. I have several friends that don’t believe in God or any supreme being and never have, but tell me they believe in the principles of the bible. I don’t know enough about what other religious teachers have said to compare, but my understanding is that there are parallels. So if you read about Jesus, and hear what he says about how to treat people, you usually can agree that they are good examples. My whole point in asking the question, was to get Beth to expound on WHY she digs Jesus, over perhaps the Dalai Lama, or Mohammed, etc. Just wanted to hear her perspective of why she puts her self in the Christian camp.
Comment by: Beth Bates
26 02/5/08 7:57 PM | Comment Link |I like your statistically accurate poll, Claudia. I wonder what the results would be at a workplace in the Bible belt.
Where did anyone get the idea I think everyone feels the same way about Jesus that I do? But thanks for the reminder, just for balance.
And I know who the bourbon cowboy is, BTW. I’ve heard him on NPR. Yes, some Christ followers do listen to NPR.
Reading the gospels, taking them in their totality and not verses out of context, I see Jesus as quite pro-woman. Anyway. I’ve tried both ways. Living without him, living with him. My life goes better with him. That’s all I can say.
And the fact that his mother irritated him for being pushy is a glimpse of humanity I can relate to. (Sorry, Mom.)
Comment by: Beth Bates
27 02/5/08 8:16 PM | Comment Link |Oh. In addition to enjoying NPR, we can be prickly too. Sorry. I’m tired from driving through driving rainstorms to Cincinnati and back to visit someone in the hospital. My nerves are frayed.
Karen - have you been a frequent Church Rater visitor long? What brings you to these parts?
Comment by: paige
28 02/6/08 7:45 AM | Comment Link |Here’s two more cents worth about the teachings of Jesus. When pressed by the religious leaders of the day, Jesus said that living/having a good life involved two things: Love God with all your heart, soul & mind and secondly, love everyone else the way you love yourself (and we’re all pretty good at loving ourselves). And then, Jesus went out and demonstrated what it was like to live that way. It’s not easy, and if you remember it got Him killed.
A friend of mine saw “The Bucket List” the other day and shared this fantastic quote: “How do you measure a person’s life? … I believe that you measure yourself by the people who measure themselves by you.” I wonder how many people measure their lives by the life of Jesus…
Comment by: chad e burns
29 02/6/08 9:00 AM | Comment Link |With all the Jesus talk you might find this post interesting.
http://roastedreligion.blogspot.com/2008/01/jesus-was-anti-religion.html
I think Lisa is right about moral teachings and all–but this is where I disagree with Fundy’s and maybe other Christians–these are not the sole property or terrain of Jesus or Christians. I do not mean that in an antigonistic way; but just stating fact. There are really good morals and really good concepts of grace in a lot of religions–and even atheists/agnostics are not void of morals OR grace OR faith (that was my last post yesterday–”Faith is what we believe in”–it was actually inspired by Beth and Traci.
http://roastedreligion.blogspot.com/2008/02/faith-is-what-we-believe-in.html
:)
Comment by: Claudia
30 02/6/08 9:15 AM | Comment Link |I don’t think anyone has that idea–what I, at least, was reacting to was “People who don’t believe in God, believe in following the teachings of Jesus.” Thanks, Lisa, for clarifying that a bit in post #25. Your earlier point in #22 that “one can take anything out of context and make it say whatever they want it to say,” though, is what makes me, at least, nervous about equating morality with Jesus’ teachings: Oh, Jesus told you to firebomb that clinic? Outstanding.
Beth, hope that whoever you were visiting in the hospital is OK…
Comment by: chad e burns
31 02/6/08 9:29 AM | Comment Link |yes Beth–thoughts and prayers to whoever you were visiting.
Comment by: Amy
32 02/6/08 10:18 AM | Comment Link |So, being raised in a family where the title of any “C” was “Those Damn Bible Beaters” Imagine my surprise when I started flinging around with a guy who’s family attended church EVERY Sunday, and who on some level knew “the truth” (even if we behaved in a manner that wasn’t very morally on target…live and learn)anyway, Jesus didn’t really konk me over the head until we got hitched and had babies, the order of events doesn’t really matter. The point is, I was the black sheep of the family…still am thankfully. But the pain of living without Him, even though it was a familiar, somewhat comfortable place to be, was shitty compared to the life I’ve found with Jesus being a part of me. There is no reason that a product of a heroin addict and an alcoholic can live a life free of addiction, not free of crap but at least free of addiction and those demons. I know I know you can say that I can make the choice to not participate in the same extra curricular activities as my parents, but I believe that I have help everyday, and a person to say thank you to for that help.
I have experienced the magifying glass that Jesus can put on you, it is gut wrenching and beautiful and wonderous, and nasty all at the same time. For me, there is no other explanation for a time in life that is despartatley ugly and amazingly beautiful all at the same time except to say that Jesus Christ the LORD OF MY LIFE is doing the walk with me. He’s my guy, I’m with you Beth. My life rocks with him and is a garbage dump without. I don’t think he’s going to make every thing seem like “Wonka World”, but in my eyes if I stop looking so hard for the crud and disappointment (easy to find) it’s pretty stinking great to have this life, this body, this minute. I understand living life without, I lived it I can’t do that life anymore… I love people that love Jesus, I love people that don’t, I love people that don’t know the difference. It doesn’t mean the Bible is up for interpretation it’s not. The earth didn’t just decide to spin. Worship music is a little funny but it works and is freaking awesome if you can get past the part where you’re embarrassed for everyone who is singing. The faith thing isn’t a thing, it’s oxygen to me, I love it I’m not a freak,not a pollyanna, I’m just a chick and a Jesus lover like Beth and I’d love to have a “Fest” for it. Can we throw one together? Thanks JC! ;I bet I misspelled a bunch of stuff. But, BB this is my tuna noodle casserole in your time of need.
ok my body armour is in place.
lv u
a
Comment by: Lisa
33 02/6/08 10:41 AM | Comment Link |Chad wrote,
“There are really good morals and really good concepts of grace in a lot of religions–and even atheists/agnostics are not void of morals OR grace OR faith …”
I did make that point by saying there are parallels among other religious leaders.
That being said, you can’t take away that Jesus says it too.
Even if you don’t believe in God, or beleive that Jesus is/was who he claimed to be,
Can you say you wouldn’t want to hang out with him today? I guess if you consider him a liar or a lunatic, you may not want to hang with Jesus. He might be too scary. I guess, what I’ve read of Jesus makes me think, he calls us to be better than the common standards. I understand though, that people get all caught up in the guilt thing, because they can’t live up to the standards. So Jesus said he took on the sins of the world so that we “may have life, and have it more abundently”.
Look, there are lots of things about the bible and God and what Christians believe that I can’t always wrap my brain around, but when I just think of the love that Jesus was trying to express, to me that’s something. It’s relaxing. It gives peace. It’s not so depressing.
Claudia said, “that “one can take anything out of context and
make it say whatever they want it to say,” though, is what makes me, at
least, nervous about equating morality with Jesus’ teachings: Oh, Jesus
told you to firebomb that clinic? Outstanding.”
I agree, people do that all the time. It is scary. Don’t we get in arguments over the dumbest things because our words were taken out of context or misconstrued in some way? It’s the same concept with the suicide bombers. The Muslims I know tell me that their Koran doesn’t teach that, so apparently someone took something out of context to make it work for them. I guess that’s why this dialog is good. We’re all just trying to understand each other’s perspectives. At least that’s my understanding of what this blog is for. Tell me if I’m wrong.
Comment by: Traci
34 02/6/08 10:52 AM | Comment Link |AMY: Reading your comment makes me feel like you’re right here. Same energy, and I dig that.
I have two questions for you, but one at a time.
Did God just decide to be?
Comment by: Helen
35 02/6/08 11:18 AM | Comment Link |Thanks for your comment, Amy. I don’t think you’re a freak just because Jesus means a lot to you.
Comment by: paige
36 02/6/08 11:58 AM | Comment Link |The short answer is “yes”. There is no argument for it; it seems utterly ridiculous to believe in something so fantastical (hm, I wonder if that’s a word…). But that is where this whole matter of faith comes into play. You either believe it or you don’t. And God will respect your decision either way.
Comment by: Traci
37 02/6/08 12:11 PM | Comment Link |I’m curious why it’s easier to believe that God just decided to be than that the earth just decided to spin. So to speak.
Comment by: chad e burns
38 02/6/08 12:27 PM | Comment Link |Traci–I totally agree with your statements, and I agree with your question. We can look to lots of evidence to explain/help explain why the earth indeed decided to spend. G-d is truly “taken on faith”–nothing wrong with that–but I think it is healthier to at least acknowledge it regardless of your personal beliefs–I think it would cut down on some of the fanatical things like bombing abortion clinics or suicide bombers, etc.
Lisa-you sound very passionate. Please knnow my attempt was to be inclusive (not Jesus-exclusive) I assumed Jesus/Christianity was included, as that never seems to be an argument when talking with Christians or Christ-followers. I was just also pointing out that the way you feel about Jesus, the benefits, etc and the morals you stand on that came from him—-Are also existent in other faith traditions and in belief paradigms. I personally DO follow the teachings of Jesus as put forth in the sermon on the mount, but I also believe and have enjoyed inspiration from science/logic (as stated above in the “eart deciding to spin” as well as Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism(did you know Shiva–the destroyer–is morally opposed-supposed to destroy ignorance?–I just think that is cool, that one fo the jobs of Shiva is to destroy ignorance)among others. I agree with you about the purpose of this blog–this is enjoyable to me, and provides an outlet to discuss with other people who are not afraid to discuss. :)
Comment by: Lisa
39 02/6/08 12:44 PM | Comment Link |Funny Chad, The voice inside my head when I wrote the post didn’t sound passionate, but I’ve been told before that I was perceived differently than I thought I presented myself.
I agree with your comments about finding value from other teachings as well.
Comment by: Helen
40 02/6/08 12:54 PM | Comment Link |Amy wrote:
No, you’re right - that IS what it’s for.
Comment by: Lisa
41 02/6/08 1:35 PM | Comment Link |Actually Helen, I wrote that, not Amy. You must be a speed reader. I guess you have to be, in this situation.
Comment by: Helen
42 02/6/08 1:45 PM | Comment Link |Oh, then, Lisa, yes, you’re right!
Sorry I misattributed your comment to Amy. I must have been going faster than the speed reading limit :)
Comment by: karen
43 02/6/08 4:24 PM | Comment Link |Actually, you and Traci brought me over here when you mentioned your project at CaTE, and then Helen reminded me about it. I’ve been a regular reader (and some time poster) at CaTE for - what? - a couple of years now, I guess.
Sorry to hear about your friend who’s in the hospital. I hope things are better.
Comment by: Amy
44 02/6/08 8:18 PM | Comment Link |Faith is really all I have to go on Traci, I really feel like Jesus is a pal in my life. I believe that God is the Man. I just believe that he is the creator of EVERY darn thing. He is, He does, He makes, He plans, He is the man. At least that’s what I believe, and more importantly I feel. I feel it all of the time, when I’m scrambling eggs for the kiddos in the morning, when I’m putting on mascara and a friend pops into my head. The person I talk to and well pray to is God. He is in my head, heart, mascara bottle. He just is. Aw Traci we need to know eachother better. I love that you make me really think about why I feel the way I feel. It’s fun, and real. Thanks baby. Kiss your marvelous boy for my girlies and me. He’s scrumptious!!
Comment by: Traci
45 02/7/08 5:20 AM | Comment Link |And then the realization that I will never get it set in.
I don’t get why people are willing to go on faith for God and then use him to explain other things they aren’t willing to take on faith.
I don’t get what people mean when they say they feel God.
I don’t get why God gets credit for mundane stuff like a friend popping into your head. Does God also get credit for your smearing mascara on your eyelid or burning the eggs? How do you know when it’s him and not him? Even I know he supposedly gave people free will, so by the doctrine it can’t all be him.
I don’t get how faith is remotely comforting. Isn’t that at some level self-negating? “Life is challenging, and eschewing everything I KNOW to be true, everything I can see and feel and touch and everything that follows the laws of the universe I’ve seen firsthand — throwing all that over for something that can never be proved and that defies not just physics but reason will make me whole.”
I don’t get it.
I hope you will all keep trying to explain it to me, though. And, Amy, I hope we can talk about it in person with a drink or three.
Comment by: Beth Bates
46 02/7/08 6:32 AM | Comment Link |Yo Traci. Beth here. I was thinking about your question yesterday, and Beethoven’s sonatas and Bach’s Air kept coming to mind. Music historians may dispute and debate composership or date of composition of this or that manuscript; music theorists deconstruct the whole into key and time signature, dynamics and tempo; classical fans may argue the best recording; but the music lover leans back, closes her eyes, and falls into the art, trusts the sublime, listens and loves the essence. The music.
I think Amy (and I) are talking about Jesus in that sense. I would guess most thinking Christians who post here have gone through the study process and investigation of determining whether or not to intellectually accept the claims of the Bible etc. But at some point we’ve taken that step of faith and put the record on the turntable, dropped the needle, fallen back onto the couch, closed our eyes and just Ahhh. Listened to His Air. It takes a certain giving in, ceasing the striving. That’s the how and when he comes alive and I know He Is.
But I say these things realizing the inadequacy of words. Even Saint Augustine, who lived as near Christ’s time as we do to Bach or Beethoven said in his Confessions, “What has anyone achieved in words when he speaks about you (God)?” (This man revered language maybe as much as you do, Traci. Give him a read sometime.)
And finally, Brennan Manning says, “Jesus Christ will always be a scandal to the murky, immodest theory-making of the intelligentsia, because he cannot be comprehended by the rational, scientific, and finite mind.” He’s big. Bigger than big. “Kabod,” he is. Thomas Aquinas gave up trying to write about him in the end. Words aren’t enough. They’re impotent. Trying to capture him with language leads to a tendency to trivialize him, to “trim the claws of the Lion of Judah.” I think Manning makes sense when he says, “Mystery is an embarrassment to the modern mind.” We just do not do mystery.
But if we listen to Jesus as we would capitulate to the ecstasy of Bach’s Air, we might catch a “fleeting glimpse of God’s back (as Moses did), the obscure yet real, penetrating, and transforming experience of his incomparable glory-Kabod-and awaken a dormant trust.”
Comment by: Traci
47 02/7/08 6:49 AM | Comment Link |BETH: Your answer is beautiful and smart and well-put and of course not the least bit convincing to me.
As you know, I have to run off for scary, intensive dental work, but for the meantime, I wanted to respond to one thing that jumped out at me.
Arguing over the details of composition v. kicking back and listening to music doesn’t seem to me a fair analogy to faith. Whether I know anything about who and how it was written, I can hear the music.
Oh, and that Manning quote makes me want to throw up. I don’t know who he is, but I don’t think I’d run around bragging that the basis of my dearest belief is unprovable.
More later. For now, my deep thanks for taking the time to write this.
Comment by: Laurie
48 02/7/08 6:50 AM | Comment Link |Hi Traci
Yeah, I have experieced that…. I didn’t get what people mean when they say they feel God.
The worst for me was when people said they “heard from God”…does he just talk to you? talk in you??
Mystifying…
then, I had a conversion experience.. yes, it was the standard youth group emotional thing… (Don’t you wish you could have more control over those moments?)
after, it was like having another frequency on my radio tuner… before, I had my five senses, my logic, my intuition, my knowledge..
and after, it was like I had a place where I could tune into God..
at first, I was awkward and scared… were these feelings really God? was it just something I ate? was it a hallucination? was I wanting it and imagining it?
For me, I just decided to tune into that frequency and be tentative. Maybe it was God, maybe it was me… and just see how things went. A mini-feedback loop.
Over time, for me, it seems that I am more sure of when it is God and when it is just me.
Not a very sure answer. It’s just my story.
Comment by: Beth Bates
49 02/7/08 6:59 AM | Comment Link |Oh Traci. You’re just so cute. ;) To be clear, I’m not trying to convince you. Just trying to answer question about what it means to me to have a relationship with God. And I’m saying approaching Him the way I listen to music does enable me to see and hear him. Can’t see the 3D without the right lenses. But maybe like your hubby was saying about not being spiritual - it’s curious to me about non-spiritual wiring. Do you feel like it’s wiring? I would guess tone deaf people can’t hear Bach the way you or I might. So then - IF God is real and is available to all who call on his name - does it require spiritual wiring? Do you have to be able to feel him to believe in him?
Discuss.
OH and so hilarious about your Brennan Manning thoughts. He is a priest who, I believe, married a nun? Anyway. An ex-Catholic priest. And he’s not trying to convince nonbelievers either. I think he’s trying to convince the Christians who seem so assured that they run around trying save people and declare the end of the world is coming to come off it.
Comment by: Traci
50 02/7/08 7:01 AM | Comment Link |LAURIE: I love that! I’m always curious how people can say with such certainty that God talked to them. Nice to hear a more “maybe, maybe not” take on that.
Okay. Off to the dentist. For real this time.
Comment by: chad e burns
51 02/7/08 7:50 AM | Comment Link |I agree with the “maybe not” as well. I was raised in a fundamentalist, religious right tradition. I was raised to “hear from G-d”, etc. I thought it was just my lack of faith growing up, becasue even when I thought I was “hearing from G-d”–it really felt like I was just using my own common sense. This of course led to much consternation, questioning, doubt, etc. As an adult I have kind of come to believe that faith is more like a general target, and that “thinking on G-d” or praying or meditating, is a way for our conscious and sub-conscious to settle down from the distractions of the world and focus on the truths we know in our heart, and use them to make a wise decision, find peace, or gain “solid ground”. I do not mean to disparage or trivialize anyone’s faith. I have no problem with someone beleiving. However, I also think it is important that we examine for ourselves what is happening when we “use our faith”. An unexamined faith or an untested faith leads to blind fundamentalism, intolerance and ultimately the exact opposite of what Faith is supposed to stand for. I don’t see, or feel that the acceptance of logic/reason/science and the understanding of what really happens when we “pray”, “believe” or have “faith” should then negate that. I have no problem with people calling it what they want, using whatever stories, explanations, descriptions to describe the effects. But why can’t it just be that–and why does that recognition mean that faith is impossible. In short, Knowing that gravity makes the world spin and that it is the physics of the universe that started that process and keep it going, should not negate one’s “faith”. (and again, I use “faith” to not just mean religion, or theological thoughts, but to represent the core of every human’s beliefs in whatever they choose to believe in). In my opinion this truth only makes my inner faith stronger and more beautiful. Perhaps we should move our paradigm from faith aligning more with emotions to having it align in our minds more with wisdom.
http://roastedreligion.blogspot.com
Comment by: Helen
52 02/7/08 7:55 AM | Comment Link |Laurie wrote:
I went the other way - after many years of believing I was tuned in, and feeling God, I started to wonder, but how do I know and what if I’m wrong and thinking God is saying stuff to me and it’s not God at all?
And so, like Laurie but in the opposite direction I decided to see how it went if I stopped praying and when I had feelings, they were just feelings. I wasn’t going to label them anymore as “God”.
Over time it went very well and so here I am, continuing to have feelings that I think of as just feelings and not making any attempt to talk to God.
Something did precipitate the change. I was tuned in, feeling God, talking to God, more and more, more ecstasy, more communication…it was awesome…
and then I was in the psych unit - I was mentally ill (manic) - hence all the ecstasy. I was so wrong about what was happening and why.
I kept talking to God after this happened once, but after the second time - that was it. No more.
I’m not saying everyone who is tuned into God, feels God and hears from God is mentally ill. Of course not. I’m just saying…this is my experience.
Several Christians have tried to persuade me ‘back’ - but they don’t know what it’s like. They’ve never thought God was talking to them only to find out they were acutely mentally ill and thinking crazy irrational things.
Traci I hope when you return all the scary dentist stuff will be over and will have gone as planned with no unforeseen complications.
Comment by: Lisa
53 02/7/08 8:43 AM | Comment Link |Helen, Your comments are so fascinating to me. I’ve often felt the way Laurie commented. Then questioned, when do people know its God and when is it mental illness? I used to pray to know God more, to “FEEL” him more. To just KNOW once and for all and not have any more questions. Then one day I had a thought that if God really revealed himself to me the way I was craving, I might not trust it anyway. I would assume I was nuts. (sorry, don’t mean to be derogatory, but those were the words that came to me at the time).
So it leads me to Beth’s question about wiring. I’ve wondered through this whole blog if it has more to do with personality types. “it” being your experience or non experience of God.
You know the shamans in some cultures are people we would consider mentally ill in ours.
Comment by: chad e burns
54 02/7/08 8:49 AM | Comment Link |LISA–EXCELLENT post–interesting concept.
I think in large part it is about personalities, or something to that nature.
AND I LOVE the comment about the Shamans–the Hebrew prohphets were the same–check out some of Ezekiel’s writings–strange! and the same is true of the “whirling dirvishes” of Islam, who spun around and around until they could “see and feel G-d”. This, I think, is also true in all religions. GREAT POST!
Comment by: Beth
55 02/7/08 9:04 AM | Comment Link |When I say “feeling” God I mean something that transcends emotion, BTW.
Do you mean, Lisa, that the church is full of people with the same personality type? Or are you saying certain believers will experience God in a particular way based on their personality type? Whatcha sayin’ there? Because churches are filled with a disparate variety of personalities - if they were the same oh how much more peace and agreement (and stagnancy) there would be! I keep thinking of this devout Christian physics professor I knew at Purdue. He couldn’t have been more different than I am - and his intellect is dizzying while mine is puny by comparison - but his faith was probably deeper than mine and his assurance of God deeply established. I want to hear on this blog from THOSE people. Those people with scientific minds who still believe. How do they do that ? ? ? How are THEY convinced? Forward this thread, everyone, to believers you know whose IQs exceed 140. I need to hear from them. I know they’re out there.
Comment by: Beth Bates
56 02/7/08 9:18 AM | Comment Link |Laurie - thanks for returning. :)
Comment by: chad e burns
57 02/7/08 9:18 AM | Comment Link |Beth–are you saying those of us on here aren’t smart enough?? JUST KIDDING!!! :)
I had a professor in Astronomy at UF and he was head of the Student/staff interfaith group. One thing I noticed about him; and indeed the way I handle the science/faith thing is a suspension of the “literal interpretation”. I have found this true with Theologians, Scientists and the other highly educated/intelligent. (This is based on an example he used) Their faith does not seem to be conditional on whether or not G-d actually stopped the sun from moving one day back in the book of Joshua–but more on what the point of those stories are. That was what I was trying to say in my last post and on my blog. EVERYTHING in teh bible cannot be taken literally; and all the “G-d talking to me–telling us what to do–cannot be taken literally either. I believe people really do believe that, and I believe it can be true, but to an extent It makes us re-evaluate how we know/define/contemplate “G-d” . I think that is actually good. I think it will increase Christian influence if “drinking the Kool-aid” is not mandatory for “really being a part”–I AM EXAGERRATING ABOUT THE KOOL-AID TO MAKE A POINT AND BE HUMOROUS.
There is a popular praise song, called Agnus Dei–I fell in love with this song, because the way it is written, led me to misunderstand what it was saying–and quit honestly I like the misinterpretation better. It says “You are HOLY. HOLY . . . are you Lord G-d, Almighty . . .” but the way it is sung, I thought it was just repeating the word “HOLY” and when the song picked up again with “Are you Lord G-d, Almighty”, I thought it was asking a question. I loved that because I could RELATE to that. I could relate to questioning and doubt, because I experience that. I took it to mean that the strength of your faith is not always if you believe; but if you question and yet still believe. Again, I think this would be a beneficial paradigm shift for Christendom to make. In my humble opinion.
btw–I think I have explained from my experience how the intelligencia continue to believe/”have faith.”
Comment by: Lisa
58 02/7/08 9:30 AM | Comment Link |“Or are you saying certain believers will experience God in a particular way based on their personality type?”
More this–and just supposing again
Comment by: Lisa
59 02/7/08 9:38 AM | Comment Link |I absolutely know the church is filled with all different personality types. I encounter “the church” everday in my profession. It’ always fascinating to me how different ppl are and that there are so many different types of believers. I think that’s why we have so many denominations within “the church” because certain personality types are going to be more drawn to certain congregations.
btw, how do you know that the people already here posting don’t have an IQ above 140? ;)
Comment by: Beth Bates
60 02/7/08 9:58 AM | Comment Link |Yes, Chaddy. (That’s what I say in my head every time I read “Chad E.”) Reminds me of a story I read in the same Brennan Manning book, “Ruthless Trust,” of an American dude who went to Calcutta to hang out and serve with Mother Teresa. On his first morning there he met her and she asked, “And what can I do for you?” He asked her to pray for him. “What do you want me to pray for?” she asked him. He said he wanted to her to pray that he would have clarity. She firmly replied, “No, I will not do that. Clarity is the last thing you are clinging to and must let go of.” He commented to her that she seemed to possess the clarity he longed for. She laughed and said, “I have never had clarity; what I have always had is trust. So I will pray that you trust God.”
Comment by: Beth Bates
61 02/7/08 10:00 AM | Comment Link |Of course we’re all brilliant. Every last one of us. (ha)
Comment by: chad e burns
62 02/7/08 10:12 AM | Comment Link |Interesting story Beth. (chaddy is the least of the nicknames I’ve had–my name is Chad and I lived in Florida during the 2000 election debacle) :)
I like what you said, but I think one caveat should be in place–and I would LOVE for Traci to comment on this as well, when she comes back.
A Hindu friend of mine said she has always been taught, as a young Hindu, that it is what you believe; not neccessarily who or what you believe in; that matters. She said she was taught the mantra of G-d is Love; Love is G-d. She explained this by saying to the “believer” G-d is Love, and all reasoning, belief, faith and action should stem from that. However, the converse statement was also counted as true–that for “non-believers” Love is G-d should be true; that whether you believe in a deity or not–Love is supernal and priority #1. To the “believer” their G-d is the epitome of Love; and to the “non-believer” Love should be “their god”. LOVE is always the focus and desired outcome Thoughts???
http://roastedreligion.blogspot.com
Comment by: Beth Bates
63 02/7/08 10:15 AM | Comment Link |Interesting. What “love” is she referring to, I wonder.
Jim H. talks about this, our numbing devotion to “beliefism.” While we’re trying to figure out what we “believe” and why we believe it, people are going hungry and suffering injustices that Jesus - and others - have taught to fight against in his name. So while we’re debating what to believe we can DO, can’t we? We can feed the hungry, clothe the poor, visit the imprisoned, care for the widow. Mustn’t we? We can follow Christ in this way before and in response to believing in him.
Comment by: Matt Casper
64 02/7/08 10:23 AM | Comment Link |The human mind is truly an incredible thing: sometimes it works wonders, like when Cezanne starting painting what he saw with his mind not his eyes, and when Einstein realized his theory of relativity; sometimes it works horrors, like when people suffer from mental illness and hear voices all the time; sometimes it works randomly, like dreams and the synapses that fire off giving us the feeling of deja vu; almost always, it works to protect us and help us create a sense of order in our random, wonderful world.
And it’s in the mind where gods live, too, giving people a framework for their lives and answers to the unanswerable questions. But–like dreams and love and joy and madness–it is only in our minds where gods live, not in the natural world. Is that enough for Christians and other believers? Or do people really, honestly believe that there is supernatural, all-powerful god that is tangible beyond what one sees in one’s mind (a.k.a., what one believes)?
That’s the question I find myself asking believers all the time. Because if there is a tangible, supernatural god ruling our universe, then that opens the door to anything: flying people, talking trees, Santa Claus, teleportation, miracle cures, heat vision, goblins, walking on water.
Is this what people believe? Really? Because if the supernatural god people talk about exists, then everything I mentioend above should be possible, too. And it sounds pretty far out there when you really think about it. Even Scientology is more plausible, really (with its reliance on aliens and all that).
Traci, Beth: have you guys started talking about these kinds of things yet?
Comment by: Beth Bates
65 02/7/08 10:34 AM | Comment Link |Matt. Thank you for your thoughts. Intriguing, all of them.
Nope. But Saturday night we’re going to the roller derby to enjoy some beers and the fury of a woman !
Comment by: Helen
66 02/7/08 10:53 AM | Comment Link |Beth wrote:
Then…that’s a feeling outside my experience.
I think they’re convinced pretty much the same way. They might be more ready to provide analytical backing for their beliefs but I think the cornerstone is faith-plus-experience has personally led them to believe God is real.
Facts and evidence alone don’t lead to ‘a personal relationship with God’.
Comment by: karen
67 02/7/08 11:53 AM | Comment Link |Beth asked how brilliant science types continue believing in god. I don’t know about them personally, but I can tell you that as a conservative evangelical for 30 years, I became an expert at “compartmentalization.”
I’m a natural skeptic, but I put my religious beliefs in a separate “box” in my mind (if you will) and didn’t subject them to the same scrutiny and logic I used in the rest of my decision-making. This was due to my early childhood training in Christianity and due strongly to the emotional attachment I had to belief (Daniel Dennett calls this “belief in belief” and he has demonstrated that most every culture prioritizes it).
I imagine that lots of other people who have a natural bent to logic and reason do the same thing I did, whether they realize it or not.
Comment by: chad e burns
68 02/7/08 12:25 PM | Comment Link |Beth said:
“while we’re debating what to believe we can DO, can’t we? We can feed the hungry, clothe the poor, visit the imprisoned, care for the widow. Mustn’t we? We can follow Christ in this way before and in response to believing in him.”
AMEN!!!! I could not agree more. My cousin actually wrote me an amazing response to one of my blogs and she basically said the same thing Beth,–we MUST do–regardless of religion, faith or belief. All the discussion is fun and thought provoking but as James said “Faith without works, is dead.”
http://roastedreligion.blogspot.com
Comment by: chad e burns
69 02/7/08 12:44 PM | Comment Link |karen, amen, Amen, AMEN
I know about the seperate compartment. I know EXACTLY what you’re talking about and how it feels; and how, for me, it ultimately robbed me of faith.
I do not think anyone can suppress the truth like that for long and be OK. Thta is why I think is it important to talk and discuss openly about faith and the limitations, err on the side of reason/logic and have faith evolve into something more that the “seperate box theory”. Not that I have all that figured out, but that is the general direction I am headed. And I completely agree with:
“I imagine that lots of other people who have a natural bent to logic and reason do the same thing I did, whether they realize it or not.”
ESPECIALLY teh “whether they realize it or not” part.
Matt–interesting post as well–I can’t speak for everyone, but I can say that for me–most “christians” would probably say I am a non-believer–but I don’t feel so–for me I cling to the idea that “G-d is LOVE; LOVE is G-d” and that is how I define my personal belief and my personal faith that G-d is the embodiment of LOVE and all the altruistic natures of humankind.
Comment by: Helen
70 02/7/08 1:16 PM | Comment Link |Matt wrote:
Yes, I think many people who believe in God really honestly do believe God is an all-powerful being outside of themselves. Not just a figment of their mind.
Did you have that conversation with Jim?
Comment by: Claudia
71 02/7/08 1:54 PM | Comment Link |I’ve got $20 shiny new bucks that says this site just made their media watch list…
Ditto that.
And speaking of brilliant scientific minds, I was kind of hoping for the good Dr. C. to chime in on the “Mystery is an embarrassment to the modern mind” point. C’mon. You know you wanted to.
Ever read any Sagan on this, btw? “The idea that God is an oversized white male with a flowing beard who sits in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow is ludicrous. But if by God one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God. This God is emotionally unsatisfying…it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity.”
Comment by: chad e burns
72 02/7/08 2:19 PM | Comment Link |who is Dr. C?
I agree with Sagan, for the most part–however, I cannot deny the fact that many people do believe, and want to believe in a higher power. I myself am prone to split my mind at times and see the need/desire for an emotional/spiritual response. I think some people are more likely to have those thoughts and feelings and intuitions–just like some people are more geared to science/math or art or music, or cooking, etc . . .That being said–I also (in fairness) believe there are A LOT of people who also believe out of “fear” and ignorance and also just because it is just what tehy have always known. Again, that should not jeopardize anyone’s faith; but I think it is important to look at faith (like everything else) with a critical eye. If for no other reason, than because faith is not tangible and highly personal.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
73 02/7/08 3:46 PM | Comment Link |we’ve got another Ebay Atheist blog going here - wow you guys know how to draw traffic
Comment by: JM
74 02/7/08 3:47 PM | Comment Link |It’s been hard for me to completely follow all of these threads here, mostly because I tire quickly of proof of God discussions. I mean, it’s the kind of thing that Augustine got sainted for, but then is easily summed up in one moe. song.
The one thing that did catch my eye was chad’s mention of Bill Maher on Larry King. Having spent several months working with Mssrs. Maher and Charles on their forthcoming nonfiction comedy motion picture Religulous, I thought I would direct Traci to the work of Father George Coyne. Not to sound like a Catholic apologist or anything, but if you want logically rigorous theology, go to the Jesuits.
Fr. Coyne gives a lot of life to the old Baltimore Catechism responses to the hows and whys of creation and consciousness, going so far as to make the most cogent argument for modern cosmology as a function of a sentient creator since the Gnostic Heresy. He’s the kind of guy PJP loved and Benny hates.
At any rate, hope that the full interview makes it on the DVD extras as he’ll probably be mostly cut from the film. Making a moving and logical case for the existence of God and clearly stating that science (or logic) and faith do not have to be mutually exclusive was a bit subtle, especially since just letting Ken Ham talk makes fun of itself…
Claudia, leave Dr. C out of this. He’s a legitimate scientist, fully aware of the fact that words mean things. Which is to say, whatever you want them to mean. Cold, hard numbers are real. Real like the steel between your legs this morning…
Comment by: Traci
75 02/7/08 4:32 PM | Comment Link |Dr. C is the scientician in my kitchen right now. About to run off with our kid for a pizza. He said, “Tell Claudia I cannot be goaded.” Claudia: He can. He married me.
MATT: I should have consulted you earlier. You put a lot of what I’ve been thinking in a neat, clear package. Always good to have a copywriter on the case.
Beth and I have not covered these topics; we’ve put off these discussions but made a pact to “get deep” over many beers when we head off to the Convergence conference in a couple weeks.
KAREN: I worry about your box. (DAN: I’ve never said that before.) That is, I suspect there are some dangers that arise from the kind of compartmentalization you mention, and I wonder what living in halves could do to people. (I don’t mean you specifically.)
CHAD: Love is good, but I’m cool with letting love be love. I don’t need to elevate anything to Godness, not even gravity.
EVERYBODY: Totally sucks that the conversation I’ve been waiting for happened on the day of my mild painkiller fog. I’m sorry for the slow responses. Thanks for all the juicy comments.
Comment by: karen
76 02/7/08 5:09 PM | Comment Link |I agree with you, Chad. I’m glad to find someone else who can relate to the “box” analogy.
It sounds to me like what you’ve settled on is more like “deism” than “theism.” Deism doesn’t strike me as illogical, because heck - what do we know about all this stuff really?! If I someday experience a great need to return to religious belief, I would consider deism probably my only option.
Worrying about someone’s “box” would be considered overly familiar in some countries. ;-)
But actually, you’re right to be worried. The compartmentalization led to the mother of all midlife crises about eight years ago for me. The firewall came down, the box disintegrated and I’m only just finished recovering. It was a bad scene there for a while, but CaTE, Helen and all the lovely people at FriendlyAtheist really aided me a lot more than they probably realize.
Comment by: Beth Bates
77 02/7/08 6:48 PM | Comment Link |JM
ME TOO!
I’m counting the hours till Naptown Roller Girls with the Cumbays. Traci assures me God won’t be there.
Comment by: chad e burns
78 02/8/08 7:52 AM | Comment Link |Traci–thanks for the thoughts–perhaps the term “G-d” is too shrouded in deity—a better word, would perhaps have been “Primal or Superior”?
Karen–my only issue with “deism” is I am not into “communing with nature”. If I can be a “deist” and enjoy a/c and the comforts of the 21st century, then that is fine. LOL :)
Comment by: JM
79 02/8/08 1:10 PM | Comment Link |chad
Don’t let Thoreau scare you away from Deism. Emerson made fun of him all the time, and Dr. Swedenborg was a straight up scientist. This is all without mentioning Ben Franklin and most of the rest of the Enlightenment thinkers to whom we owe the underpinnings of all of our 21st century technology.
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It would be great if everyone involved in today’s religious fundamentalism and sectarianism had a sense of history, no? That’s why it’s good to read other books than the Bible (or the Koran, or the freaking Rig Vedas, or whatever else people are claiming to be the revealed word of the divine these days.)
Where are our modern satirists, anyway?
Colbert=Voltaire? Maybe, but Klosterman does’t even come close to Swift….
Comment by: karen
80 02/8/08 2:56 PM | Comment Link |Hmmm… I don’t think you have to be a nature boy or a naturalist (I always equate that word with “nudist” somehow!) to be a deist. I think the nature worship comes in either if you’re a pagan or a pantheist. But what do I know!?
Comment by: Traci
81 02/8/08 3:41 PM | Comment Link |Killer B is your leeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeead jaaaaaaaaammmmmmmmmmerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!
Comment by: Beth
82 02/8/08 4:06 PM | Comment Link |Right behind Spliiiiiiit Infinitiiiiiiiive!
Comment by: chad e burns
83 02/8/08 8:29 PM | Comment Link |not sure what happened w/ Traci and Beth–but thanks to Karen and JM for your comments.
Right on about reading more an actually KNOWING history and not just “myth”–speaking of, have any of you spent any time on that pool of ignorance AKA Conservapedia?? appalling!
Comment by: Beth Bates
84 02/9/08 5:33 AM | Comment Link |Roller derby’s happening to us, ChadE.
We’re off to an African American gathering this morning. Stay tuned. . .
Comment by: karen
85 02/9/08 2:12 PM | Comment Link |I’ve heard about it, but not visited. I find that I get too easily triggered psychologically if I immerse myself too much in stuff from my past.
That’s why I won’t see Jesus Camp. The memories are still too raw for me.
Comment by: chad e burns
86 02/9/08 6:21 PM | Comment Link |WOW–I had forgotten about Jesus Camp!!–I went and found it on YouTube–or at least portions of it.
SAD!! DISTURBING!! Karen, I agree, had NO idea how much I really had grown and changed until I just watched the very first part (A Nation Down The Drain) I literally was shocked and , yes, a bit strickened. I don’t know which really disturbed me more–Ted Haggard, the Camp Lady preaching Harry Potter should be Stoned, or the sad sad indoctrination of the children in tears for their sin or just because they are trying to get to G-d so hard. It really does just make me sad, very sad.
Comment by: Beth Bates
87 02/9/08 8:04 PM | Comment Link |There’s a clear distinction between fundamentalism and evangelicalism, and we’re steering pretty clear of the “fundie” end of the spectrum for the project. For the record. At least in my evangelicall experience, none of the leaders with whom I’m familiar would have claimed him (Haggard) even before the debacle.
Comment by: Helen
88 02/9/08 8:41 PM | Comment Link |Ted Haggard is definitely an evangelical - he was the leader of the National Association of Evangelicals.
Beth, are you sure the leaders with whom you’re familiar would not have claimed Ted Haggard? What would their reasons be for not claiming him?
For what it’s worth, when people who aren’t Christians use the term “fundie” they’re often describing evangelicals. Many of them would say people who believe this are “fundies”. And BSF would definitely count as “fundie” to them.
So - while you might be avoiding “fundies” according to your definition, you aren’t necessarily avoiding them according to the working definition of that word held by many people who aren’t Christians.
Comment by: Beth Bates
89 02/9/08 8:56 PM | Comment Link |Yeah, my peeps aren’t neocharismatics. Yeah, the link I included in my post articulates the differences too.
Comment by: Beth Bates
90 02/9/08 8:57 PM | Comment Link |(Not there’s anything wrong with neocharismatics.)
Comment by: Helen
91 02/9/08 9:22 PM | Comment Link |Thanks Beth. Sorry if I came across overly confrontational/argumentative.
Comment by: chad e burns
92 02/9/08 9:56 PM | Comment Link |interesting Beth–interesting to know there are evangeicals out there who would not claim Ted Haggard PRIOR to his issues. I know Jim Wallis is part of the “evangelical LEFT” movement, and all, but I think/thought they were few and far between.
However, when I use the term “fundy/fundie” it is really an homage to Dave Dickerson (who I first heard say the word) and refers exclusively to evangelicals/religious right/social conservatives/fundamentalists that dominate the nat’l deabte and that are the people I grew up with and still am kin too. :)
Comment by: Beth Bates
93 02/10/08 7:44 AM | Comment Link |and
I’m just sayin’.
Comment by: Lisa
94 02/10/08 9:54 AM | Comment Link |I suppose Catholics could fit in either group, or are they in a league all their own? I suppose the Catholics on hubby’s side are more fundamental in their thinking and the Catholics on my side are more evangelical. Of course my Catholics are Yankees and John’s are little more Dixie.
I had a theology professor years ago that asked the question, “does the region we live in and the weather we experience, have an effect on our perspective of God?”
Comment by: chad e burns
95 02/11/08 8:34 AM | Comment Link |Regional does matter. I know Beth is technically correct, but in the South–I think it is hard to see.