Beth and Traci: Roll Over Martin Luther
Traci’s slammed with paid assignments, and I’m waiting for her to post since it was my turn last.
To lighten her load, I wrote up a draft about our visit to the numbingly civilized Lutheran ladies tea at Carmel Lutheran Church. I thought she could tack some thoughts on the end, and we’d have us a new post. But.
Ms. Cumbay says she has nothing to say, which to me is saying something. What would Martin Luther the renegade anarchist say if he knew his religious descendants were boring believers and nonbelievers to tears?
Traci: Why do we need to report on every visit? If my reaction is meh, there’s not much of a story.
Beth: Your reaction to wherever we visit, a la Jim and Casper, is the story. Not being argumentative, just trying to explain. It’s significant that it did nothing for you. Way significant. Trust me. We churchies eat that stuff up. Especially if you can articulate why it didn’t move you. They’ll find it enthralling that you weren’t moved by the Lutheran ladies tea, because I guarantee you, those Lutheran ladies were. (Our host) even called the talk “intriguing.”
Traci: Lordy. You seem intensely desirous of a Lutheran tea post, so I’ll try, Beth. I’ll try.
One of our first observations at the Lutheran Women Missionary League Valentine’s Day (in January) Tea was the sprinkling of African American women coloring the 99.9% pasty crowd gathered at a church in the heart of Whitiewhiteburgtownville. We were also surprised to notice a handful of Lutheran brothers at the event billed as a mother-daughter tea. But we’re not genderists. Live and let live, we say.
Jody, our host, claims the subversive spirit of Martin Luther lives on in her congregation that she calls Mini-Germany, in spite of the sedate tea. “Now if you come to a Beth Moore study, you’d get some in-depth conversation. We had a big show down last week when we discussed the works of the Holy Spirit and the charismatic, Baptists, Lutherans and Catholics had some ’spirit-filled’ conversation alright. Now that was fun,” she said.
She apologized for not engaging us on our project as we gathered with five polite women around one of 50(?) tables in the gym. “That is so ‘Lutheran’ of me to invite you,” she said, “listen to an intriguing talk, then forget completely about the ‘lovely’ topic because there is some good Apple struedel and tea waiting for us in the gym. Oh well, I hope you get a good post about ‘love’ and how God fits into the equation to cause the heart to stir a bit.”
I don’t know, Traci. Did the talk strike you as intriguing? What did you notice about the Lutheran ladies tea? How was your cake? My apple strudel, wow.
Traci here. There wasn’t much to notice. The light fixtures in the entryway (is that what they call the narthex?) were lovely. The speaker was very impressed with herself and seemed more interested in putting a joke in every statement than in getting a message across. My cake was chocolatey and full of the love of Lutheran ladies. I could taste their cacao-laced earnestness.
Comment by: Helen
1 02/2/08 8:07 AM | Comment Link |Traci, thanks for letting Beth talk you into commenting on the Lutheran Ladies Tea. I’m interested to hear you were bored (ironically?). Your loss is my gain, I suppose :)
What did the speaker do that indicated to you she was impressed with herself?
Beth, did you feel the same way about the speaker as Traci? Did you get more out of the talk than Traci did? What do you think Jodi found ‘intriguing’ about the talk?
Am I asking too many questions? :)
Comment by: Jody
2 02/2/08 12:50 PM | Comment Link |Thanks ladies for coming with me. I knew I was bringing you to light hearted event. Glad the coffee, tea and cake pushed the blood sugar back into operation. Funny, we keep coffee and food at the center of religious events.
I agree with Traci that the speaker’s message got lost in her attempt to throw in a few cute jokes.
Since I didn’t take the opportunity to make good table talk, I can do some cyberspace talk and ask both Traci and Beth their reaction to the heart of the talk, which included the concept that Love is from God. What is the reaction?
Obviously we all expereince love whether we are believers or not. And how did her comments about 1 Corinthians 13 sound to everyone?
here’s an excerpt … “Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Thank you for letting me jump into the mix!
Comment by: Jody
3 02/2/08 2:34 PM | Comment Link |fyi … here is the website for the lutheran women’s missionary league LWML
http://www.lwml.org/
Comment by: Jana
4 02/2/08 2:45 PM | Comment Link |Comment by: Helen
5 02/2/08 4:26 PM | Comment Link |Hi Jody - thanks for stopping by and jumping in!
It seems to me that ‘love is from God’ wouldn’t make sense to anyone who doesn’t believe in God.
Jana, thanks for your comment.
Comment by: Jody
6 02/2/08 8:42 PM | Comment Link |Hi Helen,
I’m happy to engage. I find this dialogue interesting. I love Beth and Traci. Although I haven’t had much time to get to know Traci. But any friend of Beth’s is a friend of mine. I thoroughly enjoyed Jim and Casper’s book and my heart goes out to those who are seeking deeper meaning to life. Of course, I’ll be honest right here and say I am a wholehearted believer in Jesus and find the Bible to be truth. So I love this “safe place” of conversation.
Thank you for creating that space. Or as Jim mght say “defending the space.” I’ve been reading for several days now, but I am a little intimidated, but everyone seems willing to hear each other. I look forward to more!
Comment by: Jody
7 02/2/08 9:00 PM | Comment Link |Hi Jana,
As a long time Lutheran, I can tell you that good old Martin Luther defend himself using the words of the Bible. He was not a big fan of “sinning boldly.” Sorta why he started the whole reformation.
He might quote from one of the new testament books called 1 John “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he (God) is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins.”
Martin Luther would claim that sinning boldly will not give us true peace, but leads to more destructive behavior. But He would claim believing in Jesus gives new freedom and peace in life.
That’s why he was deemed as a crazy man since everyone back then thought they had to do something to earn something. He argued against the whole “works based religion.”
He would argue that we do good things as an act of gratitude for what Jesus already did for us.
But all that might sound rather bizare if you don’t believe that the Bible is true. I guess that is where it all comes down. Even among Christians. Many choose to claim the parts they agree with and leave behind the parts they would rather not agree with.
Oh, my, I need to get some sleep. This is way too contagious.
Comment by: benjamin ady
8 02/2/08 11:01 PM | Comment Link |traci
can identify with feeling of being bored to tears at church things.
One of the great things about Luther was his lack of boringness. His invective against what he thought was wrong with the church was, from our present day perspective, pretty wild and crazy and certainly has the potential to be entertaining.
My suggestion is, for when you’re bored, ask shocking questions. (not that you asked for suggestions =)
Like “Why do you call yourselves Lutherans when Martin Luther was such a shocking ante Semite?” That might get a little conversation going? Or not?
Comment by: Beth Bates
9 02/2/08 11:09 PM | Comment Link |Why did he say to “sin boldly?” What was that all about? You’re not defending Luther, are you? Just wondering.
Comment by: Traci
10 02/2/08 11:50 PM | Comment Link |The tea was lovely. The talk had far less substance than the Bundt cake. I find it difficult to take seriously anyone who starts a talk with a “HAR — these modern times! I e-mail my husband across the breakfast table!” kind of message. How about that airplane food, ladies and germs?
After 20 minutes of cutesy jokey bits, the speaker threw out some statements that made no sense to me. Among them: “Making love has become a euphemism for one-night stand.” Yeah. In the same way everybody now says elephant dung when they mean apple fritter.
But I’m nitpicking.
I admit I missed the “love is from God” message Jody mentioned and instead took away the more practical, “Love is sacrificial, messy, active, and intense.” Fair enough. But the Corinthians business is such a go-to bit when the topic of love is in the air that I’m numb to it.
I didn’t buy any of the books the speaker was hawking in the lobby.
At an event like that one, I don’t think I get a fair sense of what the church is about. The whole thing rested on the shoulders of a lady promoting her book. We’ll have to try again. See what the Lutherans talk about when they talk about God.
BENJAMIN: I’ve quickly realized what a dearth of knowledge I have about Christianity. I’m dying to study up so I CAN ask the hard questions. Or you wanna come along and ask them for me? Wig and a dress?
Comment by: Jana
11 02/2/08 11:59 PM | Comment Link |Jody,
Thanks for the post, Im also Lutheran, lutefisk and all. I didn’t mean the sin boldly literally. I used to have a pastor who would always quote the first part of the ’sin boldly, have faith bolder still’ quote from Luther and see if we could remember the latter. What I like about Luther is that he stood up to the church authority, took big risks for what he believed in. With respect to grace I think he was right.
Benjamin,
I am aware that Luther had some really anti semitic ideas, by that I mean that I know they exist. I haven’t studied/read them. But I think your questions are very interesting and great food for thought.
Comment by: Beth Bates
12 02/3/08 12:07 AM | Comment Link |Really, Traci? Are you seriously dying to read up on Christianity? I’m wondering what books people would recommend you start with. Yes, I ended that sentence in a preposition. It’s the middle of the night, what do you expect at?
I’d give you Anne Lamott’s “Traveling Mercies” and Brennan Manning’s “Ragamuffin Gospel.” And a New Testament. Let me know if you’re serious about reading up, and you know I’ll hook you up.
Comment by: Traci
13 02/3/08 12:11 AM | Comment Link |Yup, Beth. I think I’ll start with the bible. Although Claudia recommends I read some Dawkins first.
Comment by: Beth Bates
14 02/3/08 12:13 AM | Comment Link |Hee! You need a bible? Dan has about five that students have given him.
Comment by: Beth Bates
15 02/3/08 12:13 AM | Comment Link |Start with John.
Comment by: Jana
16 02/3/08 12:28 AM | Comment Link |Traci,
Thanks for posting! Good luck with your reading.
Beth,
Just curious, why start with John?
Comment by: Helen
17 02/3/08 7:27 AM | Comment Link |Martin Luther certainly did not like Jews - this Wikipedia article goes into details.
I’d also be curious why you said that, Beth.
I would start with the four gospels, Matthew Mark Luke and John, since they are the four narratives about Jesus’ life and words. And Christianity is (supposedly) based on them.
I would suggest reading them from ‘least interpreted/editorialized’ to most - which as best I recall would be, Mark, Luke, Matthew then John.
It’s not a big deal though - start with John if you like.
Comment by: Helen
18 02/3/08 7:46 AM | Comment Link |Jody I’m glad this conversation is working for you.
I think Martin Luther really did say ’sin boldly’ but the context is important:
Here’s the letter in which he wrote that. (scroll down to point 13, near the end)
Comment by: Jody
19 02/3/08 11:15 AM | Comment Link |Thanks for bringing the “sin boldly” thing into context. I had forgotten about that clever little line. Love that Martin Luther.
Traci is wise to start with the Bible. Why read other books who give their opinion about the Bible when she can read it first hand and form her own opinion.
I agree with Beth that the book of John is a good place to start. I think John is a good start since it does give a simple narrative about Jesus’ life and times, but it gives deeper definition to who Jesus claimed to be. And that is the heart of the matter with Christianity … who did Jesus claim to be?
Comment by: Helen
20 02/3/08 11:26 AM | Comment Link |Jody wrote:
Yes, I’d recommend reading the ’source material’ first too.
Jody, I respect your opinion about John. I’ve often heard Christians say “start with John”.
Comment by: Beth Bates
21 02/3/08 12:37 PM | Comment Link |Again, I wouldn’t argue with anyone’s choice to read the Bible, especially if she wants to know more about who Jesus was. But if she wants to learn ‘about Christianity’ I would think “Mere Christianity” or something along those lines might be useful too. And Helen, now that you mention it, I would agree with your ordering of the gospels. I like John because Jesus feels most accessible in that book. More red letters and all. :)
Okay. So. The Bible. Now. Which translation?! I have a New Testament “The Message,” an NIV and an NASV. Which I know is going to lead to questions about translations. I meant to ask Dave Rod this morning to recommend a translation. I think everyone has his or her ow personal favorite. Don’t you?
Luke is said to be the most literarily sophisticated, so I would think my writer friend would appreciate that.
Comment by: Claudia
22 02/3/08 12:49 PM | Comment Link |I’m surprised at the recommendations to start with the New Testament/gospels, rather than read the full Bible in order–kind of. But it’d be like starting with the third Bourne movie; it’s not like you’d miss the point of it, but you’d be working without a lot of context. Heir to David, thousands of years of messianic foreshadowing, etc. And no Franka Potente.
Benjamin, I think I love you.
Traci, I KNOW I love you. This is the kind of (well, it’s related to the kind of) intertextuality you’d miss out on if you go straight to the gospels.
Really, though, skip Numbers.
Comment by: Beth Bates
23 02/3/08 1:21 PM | Comment Link |Claudia, for an abbreviated historical/messianic foreshadowing groundwork, how about Genesis, Psalms, Isaiah? I mean, that woman is Biz. E.
Comment by: Beth Bates
24 02/3/08 1:23 PM | Comment Link |Or she could listen to the podcast “Legacy: Unearthing Our Our Past” for an engaging spin through Genesis.
Claudia - If you open “Chapter Two - Overview of Legacy Series” you might enjoy the brief OT history quiz at the beginning.
Comment by: Lisa
25 02/3/08 2:05 PM | Comment Link |My understanding of why Christians usually recommend reading the New Testament 1st, is because it tells the story, more clearly, about Jesus– who he is/was. Jesus is the whole reason for Christianity, so learning about him is more relevant for life today for the Christian. His claim was that he abolished the “law” of the old testament through his death and resurrection. I guess it’s like watching the 70’s version of the Star Wars series 1st and then going back and watching the prequel to understand it on a deeper level. Just trying to draw on my memory from church days, so anyone out there more involved in the church, correct me if I’m wrong. If you read the old testament 1st, you may have a better understanding of Judaism.
I asked my husband if Star Wars would have been just as good for him had he seen it in order, all he could say was that it would be interesting to see what someone else would think of it if they saw it that way. Then he mentioned Pulp Fiction being an out of order movie. Maybe it’s more captivating? Sorry–don’t mean to make so many goofy references, just trying to keep it real.
Comment by: Jody
26 02/3/08 2:13 PM | Comment Link |For a big Bible overview, you can try the “read the bible in 90 days” strategy.
There is a link at the bottom of the Carmel Lutheran website to see the schedule at http://www.carmellutheran.org/
I like all resources Beth is listing. Thanks!
Comment by: Beth Bates
27 02/3/08 2:18 PM | Comment Link |Kill Bill’s out of order. And delicious.
Comment by: Jody
28 02/3/08 2:23 PM | Comment Link |As we banter about Biblical translations, I’d like to learn more about Beth and Traci’s reaction to the less than intriguing speaker.
Inside her lame jokes were some christian concpets worth reviewing. Traci said the use of 1 Corinthians 13 is way to overdone.
As a Christian I heard her message of “replacing your name into the famous chapter.” This is to lead the listeners to see their need for a God who can provide perfect love into relationships. Any comments on that theory? Just curious.
Comment by: Jody
29 02/3/08 2:39 PM | Comment Link |I love how Lisa keeps it real. Great movie references
Comment by: Helen
30 02/3/08 3:38 PM | Comment Link |Translations: Beth, I’d show all of them to Traci and let her pick which one she prefers to read.
Or, Traci or anyone else, if you want to compare versions online, there are lots at BibleGateway.com.
Context/order: I think it’s up to the person reading.
I doubt anyone would pick up all the foreshadowing Christians are taught to find in the Bible if that person just read through the Old Testament themselves. But maybe I’m wrong.
Comment by: Helen
31 02/3/08 3:49 PM | Comment Link |Jody, can you explain how it works, putting your name in the chapter?
For example, does “Love is patient” becomes “God is patient with me” or “I am patient”?
Comment by: Beth Bates
32 02/3/08 4:45 PM | Comment Link |Hi, Helen. If I recall, the speaker suggested place our own name where “Love” is. “Helen is patient. Helen is kind. Helen is never rude or self-seeking. Etc.”
Comment by: Helen
33 02/3/08 6:29 PM | Comment Link |Thanks Beth.
Jody wrote:
When I put my name in I can see I don’t always live up to what the passage says - I’m happy to admit that. However it doesn’t make me think I need God; it just makes me think, maybe I could better at some of these.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
34 02/3/08 9:40 PM | Comment Link |I prefer to read ICor in The Message and substitute God where ever it says Love. Now if that God is running things ( and I am betting he/she is) then we are cool
I would never consider substituting my name there - That would be depressing
Comment by: benjamin ady
35 02/4/08 1:25 AM | Comment Link |Claudia,
I think I love you too =)
“Bitch on wheels” is fun =)
Here’s my Bible reading recommendation, for what it’s worth (I pretty much can’t really bear to read it anymore). Just go with Matthew chapters 5 6 and 7, and Luke chapter 4. That should probably be enough actually. And please for god’s sake if you must read the bible, read the only actual proper translation into American English, Eugene Petersen’s “The Message”. All those others try to force English to be Greek, which is just … gross. I mean I’m sure Greek is wonderful, but … it’s not English, it’s Greek for crying out loud. let it be Greek, and give us English. good old American English, 21st century edition. =)
Traci–I supsect that Beth could help you out with the hard questions thing. Although the drag thing sounds kind of fun actually. But then again, visiting lots of churchish things, with men or ladies, sounds really really deeply and profoundly terrifying. I’m not making this up. I just wouldn’t do it. Just thinking about it gives me nasty shivers.
Comment by: benjamin ady
36 02/4/08 1:29 AM | Comment Link |oh–here’s a bit from Martin Luther, via Wiki, from his treatise “On the Jews and their Lies”
One has to understand a lot of his writing has a lot of this sort of invective in it, no matter who he’s disagreeing with. So it’s a lot of fun when he’s attacking people I want to attack. But it’s pretty shocking in this instance.
Comment by: Helen
37 02/4/08 4:44 AM | Comment Link |Jim wrote:
I also betting on, if God exists he/she is that God. I wrote a poem about that God once.
Benjamin, I like The Message too.
Comment by: Beth Bates
38 02/4/08 6:13 AM | Comment Link |Not wanting to overwhelm her, I walked down to Traci’s house my marked-up NIV, The Message someone gave me in the hospital and Mere Christianity for the “What Christians Believe” chapter. Upon opening the door Traci asked, “Did you bring me god’s word?” That Traci. I told her C.S. Lewis is “our Bertrand Russell.”
Later she called to tell me, “I think I’m going to save my bible reading for our flight out to the Christian women’s conference. . . I know I’ve never said that before.”
Comment by: Beth Bates
39 02/4/08 6:13 AM | Comment Link |I’m curious, Benjamin. Why can’t you stand to read it anymore? Just wondering.
Comment by: Helen
40 02/4/08 6:20 AM | Comment Link |For what it’s worth, I understand why - I can only read it a tiny bit at a time these days. Too triggering. I remember lots of it - and I like some of the parts I remember, and even live by some of them - but I can’t read it.
Strictly speaking I suppose it’s a choice: I choose not to read it except to look up whether I’m quoting/remembering a passage correctly - because it’s too difficult an experience.
The flight out is a great time to read it because presumably you’re flying together - then if Traci has questions she can ask you. Not that she will, necessarily. But she might.
If it was me the marked-up copy of any translation would win because I’d be so curious to see what you marked up :)
Comment by: Beth Bates
41 02/4/08 7:58 AM | Comment Link |I love the irony that she’ll be That Person who reads the bible during a flight. Maybe I should find her a copy of the Four Spiritual Laws for good measure.
Comment by: Helen
42 02/4/08 8:03 AM | Comment Link |Yes, that’s very funny. Traci will look like the person other people think “Oh no, I don’t want to sit next to her - she’ll spend the whole flight trying to convert me!”
As you say, a handful of tracts would complete the picture :) (she needs some to give away, I would think)
Comment by: benjamin ady
43 02/4/08 9:19 AM | Comment Link |Why I can’t read it:
Helen kind of nailed it. I find if I try to read it, I get into emotional states that are at best unpleasant. I don’t like being in them. So I don’t read it. (so simple, really =)
Comment by: Beth Bates
44 02/4/08 9:44 AM | Comment Link |Emotional states associated with previous unpleasant bible-related contexts? (Sorry. I have this danged counseling background that makes me probe.)
Comment by: Ruth Ann
45 02/4/08 11:09 AM | Comment Link |Beth, Ive decided that you’re my smartest kid. You definetly got your writing ability from your father whose only A in college was in business letter writing. I can see why you and Traci hit it off with her hilarious sense of humor
Comment by: Beth Bates
46 02/4/08 11:33 AM | Comment Link |Moooooooom!
Be sure to forward this comment to your other children. And tack on that I was Dad’s favorite, God rest his soul.
Thanks for dropping by, Ruth Ann. You silly, wacky ole lady.
Comment by: benjamin ady
47 02/4/08 1:49 PM | Comment Link |Beth,
no need to apologize =) I have this therapy head background that makes me want to respond to your probing =)
I suppose in some way it must be true, mustn’t it, that my reaction to attempting to read the Bible is related to previous expierences with which I associate the bible.
But it *might* also go beyond that. I mean *bits* of it are okay, but then you always come up against these really crazy, offputting statements. So holding that in one hand, and the fact that it’s the bestselling book of all time in the other hand, and in the third hand (actually, I’m an alien. I have as many hands as I happen to currently need) the fact that so many people call themselves christians, and claim to follow and revere this book, and yet act in such really shocking, horrible ways. Some combination of all that. Or something. =)
I mean *yes* of course that is only *half* the picture. Perhaps the reason that that’s the half I see is related to my past experiences. Yeah. That’s probably it. left hemispatial neglect due to damage to the right parietal lobe, is, perhaps, a metaphor for something that has happened to me with regards to the bible.
Comment by: Claudia
48 02/4/08 3:45 PM | Comment Link |Benjamin, Beth–your exchange reminds me of a line from one of my favorite books ever when I was a kid: “Yes, I’m letting my experience cloud my judgment. That’s what experience is for.”
Comment by: Lisa
49 02/4/08 6:32 PM | Comment Link |Claudia, what book is that from?
Comment by: Claudia
50 02/4/08 9:49 PM | Comment Link |It won a Newbery, so nobody laugh: Robin McKinley’s The Hero and the Sword. And the line’s actually “color my judgment,” not “cloud,” which is a much better read.
(So you realize, Beth, I’m totally giving it up to you on the C.S. Lewis. It’s not like Russell penned any sword-and-sorcery epics.)
Comment by: Laurie
51 02/7/08 6:17 AM | Comment Link |Hearing your thoughts on Bible reading takes me back to my start… Someone said, read John (a standard answer then and now). So, I found my mother’s King James Version and dutifully read… 1John. It took a while before I figured out that there were four books named John in the Bible. I will say that my first read of the gospel of John was a trip - all those metaphors in the first chapter were just weird.
Looking back.. I don’t know there’s a right place to start (except not in Leviticus or Ezekial). I found that if I read it - and didn’t freak out about the passages I didn’t understand (skimming is not sacreligious) - then - in time - you start to see the connections.
Comment by: Brett
52 02/14/08 9:06 PM | Comment Link |Traci, just my two cents if you are still looking for reading material:
“Beside Still Waters: Searching for Meaning in an Age of Doubt,” by Gregg Easterbrook. It’s not really about Christianity so much as it is about faith/God in general. Quite, quite good. Very thoughtful. It’s hard to find, but last I checked they had a copy at the Carmel Library.
Comment by: Beth Bates
53 02/14/08 9:42 PM | Comment Link |Economics? Sports? Faith? That Gregg Easterbrook is eclectic!