Beth and Traci: Friday night and Beth's regret
The morning after our big Covenant Community interview at Grace Community Church Traci and I debriefed briefly over the phone. She told me she had spent part of the morning replaying it in her head, remembering things she wished she’d have said. I reminded her that, thanks to the blissfully small ego and hospitable spirit of Jim Henderson, we have a place where we can say what we wish we’d have said. I had a couple unspoken answers myself.
The evening itself: Grace rolled out the red carpet for two humble writers doing nothing more than pursuing a great story. Senior pastor Dave Rodriguez couldn’t have made us feel more at home or more skillfully guided our on-stage interview before the 300+ members in attendance.
Before the service/meeting began, Dave’s efficient assistant Eness Jarvis brought us water and chocolates as we waited. Our guts tumbled with nervous explosions as we counted down the minutes.
Dave entered the empty, cavernous sanctuary and met us at the front row where we had draped our coats and saved seats for our husbands. He checked in with Traci to make sure she was cool with the title “atheist.” (She was.) The topic of the most recent “Maybe he should try cocaine” post came up and he asked, “What is ‘that’ anyway?” “You mean the Japanese spin-fuck chair?” Traci blurted and proceeded to answer. I had to walk away while she explained for my apparently embarrassed pastor . . .
Seems like all of a sudden the doors busted open and hundreds of people flooded the aisles. My heart worked hard to beat a hole through my chest in performance anxiety-driven arrhythmia. It calmed a bit when the music began, at which point I realized how uncomfortable my friend might feel. (Earlier at home my husband had offered the brilliant advice to focus on taking care of Traci. Wise man.)
The lyrics that normally refocussed my spirit looked bizarre when I read them through Traci’s lenses. I swayed to the beat but resisted singing, keeping in mind Jim’s commitment to being on Matt’s side on their church visits. I didn’t want to add to Traci’s discomfort by belting unfamiliar praise music. I sang in my head, but lyrics like “Jesus, consume me from the inside out” made me wonder what on earth Traci would be thinking about those odd, cannibalistic words on the screen. Sure enough, during the final chorus she leaned into me and asked, “What does that mean?” I chuckled and told her I had a feeling she would seize on those words.
After a state of the church series of staff reports, Dave got up and recapped Jim H.’s visit at the member meeting in November. After a four-minute montage of Jim clips (which had a narcotic effect on my nerves, thankfully) he introduced Traci and me. We managed to climb the stairs without stumbling and joined Dave up on the stage. We settled on barstool-style chairs around a tall table, mikes in hand and ready to roll. At that point I fell into a public speaking coma and had to rely on my husband’s account of the evening (apparently it went quite well. The video will be available on this blog in the near future.) One thing I do recall: Traci was brave and brilliant.
My regret is my incomplete answer to Dave’s question “What’s the substance of your friendship?” In addition to my unconscious goofball knee jerk response, “Crate and Barrel,” I wish I would have remembered to stress that the Cumbays are the only people in our lives who “defend space” for us in their world. Traci and her husband show us hospitality. With no ulterior motive or sense of obligation they invite us into their home to break bread with them. They had time for us on Christmas Eve to bring their little boy over, exchange small gifts and toast the holidays. They’re not too busy for us or other friends.
We are disheartened after five years of unreciprocated invitations from Christians we know. I know they’re busy. We’re all busy with kids activities etc. But I’m sorry. If you can’t accept an invitation to play cards or reciprocate a dinner or other social invitation once or twice a year, something’s gotta give. You need to make space in your lives for life. For people. For doing life together. For showing your children how to relax and hang out with other people like and unlike you. Entertain, people!
You don’t have to Martha Stewart, fine china, dust furniture or clean floor entertain! Your house doesn’t have to be spotless! Just throw a pot of chili on - or order pizza! - and invite one or two friends over. Use paper plates. Eat. Chat. Call it an night. Repeat!
Our atheist friends “practice hospitality.” Why don’t we? I mean, we’re great in a pinch - if we’re in the hospital or someone’s sick. Thank you so much. Seriously, we Christians excel in a crisis. But dude. Open up your schedule a little. Tell a kid “no” to an activity if you have to. Broaden your circle a bit. Honestly. Why are the atheists more hospitable than the Christians we know?
(Kudos to Amy and Eness for breaking the mold and joining us for our post-interview cast party over taquitos and fruity ‘tinis. You rock.)
Comment by: eness
1 01/28/08 6:38 AM | Comment Link |Beth! You make me laugh - thanks!
You and Traci were great on Friday and you both inspire me. I would love to hang out with you guys again. Let’s make the time. Love you much!
Comment by: Laurie
2 01/28/08 7:04 AM | Comment Link |Don’t know anyone who has spoken - especially spontaneously - who has not had regrets.
The people I saw up on stage were engaged, funny, and open. And, they looked like they genuinely liked each other - it was not a staged “handshake” opportunity. Wonder what would happen if the two Kenyan leaders browsed Crate and Barrel and drank a few fruity ‘tinis?
Comment by: Helen
3 01/28/08 7:12 AM | Comment Link |Beth, way to go remembering to ‘be on Traci’s side’!
I think this question could be dangerous to your faith. I say that because a similar question “Why are the atheists I know kinder than the Christians I know?” seriously undermined mine.
Anyway I hope you remember to say more about the substance of your relationship next time you and Traci are interviewed (Oprah? :)), ending with this question, because it’s nicely edgy.
Although you wish you’d said more, I expect it was evident to the people there that you and Traci have a great relationship. That usually comes across even if you’re a little nervous.
Comment by: Helen
4 01/28/08 7:14 AM | Comment Link |Eness thanks for stopping by the blog.
I wrote my comment before I saw Laurie’s - Laurie thanks for affirming that it was indeed evident Beth and Traci genuinely liked each other. And were engaged, funny and open. I wish I could have been there!
Comment by: Traci
5 01/28/08 7:32 AM | Comment Link |BETH: You said “Crate and Barrel”? I thought you said the substance of our friendship was “crazy marrow.”
I’m going with that, although both apply.
Medhane and I will always have time for you and your fabulous family, despite our busy schedule boiling kittens for Satan.
Comment by: Helen
6 01/28/08 7:38 AM | Comment Link |Traci wrote:
It’s interesting you can make time for Beth and her family in spite of it not being an inherent part of your Evil Atheist schedule - whereas the Christians Beth knows seem unable to make time even though it’s supposed to be included in their Godly Christian schedules.
I wonder why that is?
Comment by: Beth Bates
7 01/28/08 8:06 AM | Comment Link |“…boiling kittens for Satan” made me laugh till I stopped. OMG you’re one hilarious broad, Cumbay.
Of course there are exceptions to the inhospitable Christian rule. AND we found the believers in Colorado to gather spontaneously and socially all. The. Time. And not just with other members of “the clan” (as Dave Rod put it). We all mixed and mingled and met for book club, coffee, Mexican food and margaritas, baby showers walks, hikes, snow-shoeing, skiing, drives to Denver, weekend getaways . . . Is this tendency toward living in a social rut confined to the Midwest? Or my little corner of the midwest? I wonder.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
8 01/28/08 8:31 AM | Comment Link |Beth- beautifully written piece - (Note to Beth and Traci: Once this Christian/Athiest thing blows by both of you are now obligated to write peices/interviews and food reviews for Off The Map and Church Rater- hey let’s do a Food Rater:-)
Anyway back to your project. Your experiences of lack of social connecting among Cs I call it being “addicted to drama and allergic to the ordinary”
C culture feeds off of drama because those are the stories we hear. How can ” we hung out had a few drinks and talked about life” ever really compete with ” we prayed and fasted for 2 days for the satanic forces that are aligned against our nation”
we also find it hard to make time to hang out since we often dont know how to “talk”. Real talk wanders from small talk to political talk to relatoinships to food reviews. Cs are not equipped to connect in that kind of normal culture.
We isolate and learn to talk with each other about things we agree with. God forbid that we should have to talk with someone who seriously disagrees with us or our beliefs. What would we say then? How could we possibly be friends with people who are so different? What would Jesus do?
Well if you read the bible you will see that Jesus actually sought out opportunities to hang with people who disagreed with him and his beliefs. He did this because he seemed to think that right acting was more important than right beliefs.
You guys are providing wonderful insights for all of us to learn from.
PS- I think Dave R and his staff are some of the coolest leaders on the planet and really do get all of this stuff.
Comment by: Beth Bates
9 01/28/08 9:08 AM | Comment Link |Thanks, Jim. I’m thinking of writing a book called Entertaining for Dumb Christians. Would you care to co-author?
I think “Cs” (I’m going to steal that now, thanks) have an entertaining aversion, which is foreign to me since the women in the church where I grew up all had black belts in party-throwing. But then again, the guest lists were limited to the Clan.
PS- Good to hear you say the Grace leaders get it. I think Dave R, Tim A and Jeff U are pretty swell but don’t know the rest very well.
Comment by: Beth Bates
10 01/28/08 9:16 AM | Comment Link |(I was actually thinking Entertaining for DUMBASS Christians, but that hardly seemed lady-like.)
Comment by: Beth Bates
11 01/28/08 9:17 AM | Comment Link |OH. And Cindy Parkman, the children’s ministry pastor is the best.
Comment by: Dave Rodriguez
12 01/28/08 10:07 AM | Comment Link |OK, just a quick public thank you to you both. And, except for confounding me with the PMS comment I loved every minute of our “conversation”. Beth, your hospitality comments are dead on. We Cs talk a good authenticity and community game but hardly practice it. Maybe we settle for canned evangelistic presentations because we don’t have the time for the hard work of listening and respect and loving. We just want to “git er done”. Anyway, thanks again. Wish I could have joined the post-game wrapup!
Comment by: Ron Stohler
13 01/28/08 10:31 AM | Comment Link |Traci AND Beth,
(Thought you’d like the change of order once in awhile). Thank you for challenging us the other night. I especially resonated with your comment (Traci) that you were suprised to be “reduced to being known as Beth’s friend, Traci the Athiest.” Many Cs like me have a bad habit of labeling people, which keeps us from getting to know people for who they are first. In a real way, it’s one of the things I love about Jesus Christ. He screwed the labels and loved the person in front of him. Thanks for that reminder and your courage to give us some insight into your relationship.
Ron the Pastor (dang…I did again)
Comment by: Beth Bates
14 01/28/08 10:43 AM | Comment Link |Ron the Pastor. THANK you for switching our names. In my draft I wrote “B&T” because I was sick of hearing and seeing my name first. It runs counter to the idea at hand, but it rhythm rhymes with “Jim and Casper.” I’d much prefer to change it to “Traci and Beth.”
And sorry, Dave, for the PMS reference (even though many church members have thanked me for making you squirm in the spotlight).
Comment by: Helen
15 01/28/08 11:46 AM | Comment Link |Dave and Ron, thanks for stopping by. I’m glad you both enjoyed Friday night.
Comment by: pamhogeweide
16 01/28/08 12:48 PM | Comment Link |In addition to all the other insighful comments about this dilemma I think it’s also because many C’s are addicted to church activities. We don’t have time to mingle with the masses when we have choir practice, homegroup, bible class, prayer meetings, missions meetings, committee meetings, and so on. Who has time to have someone over for dinner when we don’t have time for dinner with our own family?
We’re gonna have to face it we’re addicted to drama (like Jim said) and also churchiness.
Comment by: benjamin ady
17 01/28/08 1:30 PM | Comment Link |xaixerxes I’m enjoying the ongoing beth and traci thing. Thank you for engaging and writing. Is there an initiation process for the kitten boiling thing, or does one just sort of dive in?
Jim,
Shouldn’t that be “Islamist Satanic terrorist forces”?
So what was the PMS comment?
.
and these things to which C’s are addicted are so *astoundingly* offputting to non or ex-C’s in many ways, don’t ya think?
I think we have some sort of advantage in Seattle. C’s here are to some extent not so much that way as in other parts of the country. At least the one’s I know personally. But then maybe it’s just a function of me avoiding the offputting types of C’s. or something.
Comment by: Beth Bates
18 01/28/08 1:38 PM | Comment Link |By Xerxes, we’re accepting book contract bids. Starting………NOW.
Glad you’re enjoying, Ady man. No one’s having as much fun as Traci and I. We are eager to move from blog to print, but we’re grateful beyond measure for this forum.
I’m a Westerner in exile. Ten more years and I’m getting the heck outta Dodge. I hope. In the meantime there’s cyber- and air travel.
Comment by: karen
19 01/28/08 4:11 PM | Comment Link |Great food for thought. We never had trouble surrounding ourselves with C friends if we were hosting a bible study, prayer meeting or church committee event (fun, fun). :-)
However, unless it was a Sunday school potluck or otherwise church-sanctioned “fellowship event,” there was little socializing amongst C’s. Absolutely no spontaneous “c’mon over and hang out” things.
I think Jim nailed it - just hanging out and chatting is not godly enough for many Cs. It’s a waste of precious time that could be used “training up our children in the way they should go” or holding prayer vigils or planning the next outreach ministry. It would have felt selfish, somehow.
And if ‘tinis of ANY kind were involved? I Don’t Think So!
Comment by: Jim Henderson
20 01/28/08 4:45 PM | Comment Link |Just for the record I have had a number of thoughtful and hospitable experiences with my C colleagues over the past 40 years. Many of them have lovingly reached out to me and brought me into their circle.
I think there has been some kind of social change however and we have become known more for circling the wagons to protect our own stuff than for being experts at connecting with the people Jesus misses most.
I dont think we should let up one minute on ourselves since we tend to claim the high moral ground a.k.a The Transformed Life. So long as we insist on using that kind of dramatic language to describe our C Community or lifestyles - then I say bring in the atheists and let them hold our feet to the sacred fire we ourselves have lit.
Or then again we could get more real and acknowledge our humanity, inconsistencies and selfishness without letting go of Jesus. Then we dont have so much to live up to and we create common ground to stand on.
If Jesus is real in you - you dont need to announce it or draw attention to it- People just get it
Comment by: Traci
21 01/28/08 6:12 PM | Comment Link |Anybody going to enlighten me about that lyric? My brain went right to “Jesus equals ebola virus.”
Comment by: Amy
22 01/28/08 6:22 PM | Comment Link |Oh I feel sick. I am going to have to comment…even though there isn’t a spell check. I am one of those “too busy people”. WOW, and YUCK!
amy
Comment by: Beth
23 01/28/08 6:25 PM | Comment Link |Admitting it is the first step, sister Amy. :)
You have a history of opening your home, Dearheart. You’re in a season that will pass (right? it will, right? because I’m seriously jonesing for your gumbo) and you’ll be able to revive your habit of entertaining.
(Just keep ignoring Traci’s query, everyone, about the cannibal Jesus lyrics.)
Comment by: Traci
24 01/28/08 6:32 PM | Comment Link |What do you have to hide, Miss Advising Everyone to Ignore My Earnest Question?
Comment by: Beth Bates
25 01/28/08 6:35 PM | Comment Link |That’s Mrs. Advising Everyone to Ignore Your Earnest Question to you.
Comment by: Jana
26 01/28/08 7:06 PM | Comment Link |Beth and Traci, you are both a hoot to read. I’m enjoying this very much!
Traci, I’m Lutheran (music is… how to put this delicately… not always our strong point). I read they lyrics and kind of thought to myself ‘that makes sense’ but trying to explain it I’m feeling a little dumb. My thinking is that they reference the idea that relationship with Jesus changes a persons heart and thus (hopefully?) their out ward actions. Anyone else want to put that more eloquently?
Comment by: Beth Bates
27 01/28/08 7:54 PM | Comment Link |Oh thanks for visiting and weighing in, Jana! We’re always thrilled to see new faces here.
I think your interpretation of the lyric sounds about right to me.
Comment by: Missy Welsch
28 01/28/08 8:01 PM | Comment Link |I just love it all, drinking it in, boiled kittens and all. Traci, would you come to my birthday party, puhhhhhleeeeasssse?? Okay, I have to be brief but B and T…you brought back to me the purity of the act of feeding someone, just anything really, but the simplicity of sharing a drink or a bit of food. Doesn’t matter if the house is perfect or even clean…just say, “Come!” Isn’t that, THAT, what we can do with the One who made us?
Comment by: Beth Bates
29 01/28/08 8:49 PM | Comment Link |Gross oversight alert! My husband and I have another set of dear friends who frequently open their home, invite us out and accept our invitations to hang with us. Lisa and John, I apologize!
ALSO, we have a precious small group and appreciate their presence in our lives. We’re there for each other each Sunday evening - and pray throughout the week, and they even changed the start time so it would work better for us. And it seems the group’s prioritizing social hang out time more. I was speaking in generalities and did not intend to offend people in our lives who are the exceptions.
And Lisa and John - what church do you attend?
Comment by: Missy Welsch
30 01/28/08 8:49 PM | Comment Link |Sweet and wonderful sister,
it’s so simple and you hit on it…the pure act of inviting someone to “come”…
I remember when life was so unencumbered by pretense…we served scrambled eggs, maybe bacon, and it was all about making someone feel safe and loved. I think of Ruth McWhite, my old baptist minister’s wife/friend…she ALWAYS had cookie dough, ready to pop in one or two really biiiiiiiiiig cookies to enjoy. That’s all. And it was the substance of our friendship. cookie dough. and that brought me to our Creator, the biggest cheese of all cheeses, who loves supping with us, dirty house, nothing in order, nothing prepared, dirty toilets, messy kitchens, sucky lives…he wants to be THERE…with us.
Comment by: Beth Bates
31 01/28/08 8:52 PM | Comment Link |Oh, Miss. Beautifully stated.
Comment by: Helen
32 01/28/08 9:06 PM | Comment Link |Traci, I think ‘consume me’ is based on the metaphor of how fire removes impurities - it ‘consumes’ them.
‘me’ represents ‘the sinful part of me’
So Jesus is being asked to remove the impurity - the sin. Leaving the Jesus-like-part-of-me.
Starting on the inside - with thoughts, which then changes the outside i.e. behavior. Like Jana said.
It’s something like that anyway.
Comment by: Lisa
33 01/28/08 9:35 PM | Comment Link |Beth, Thanks for the amendment. Did you ask the question about what church we attend, to make a point that we’re still good people even though we’re un churched?
Have you made up your mind about visiting the church of Christian Scientists? I’ve been curious about that one since we live by one, but I don’t want to be bugged afterwards. Do you think that Traci has the advantage while visiting any church, if people know her agenda, that there won’t be the constant barrage of cookies at her door? I wonder how she would feel about that? I had someone tell me they visited the church where their child attends school and mistakenly checked the box that said she would like to know more about the church. She said she’s being stalked. She would have never given a guy a 2nd date had he approached her the same way.
I guess we all have different needs.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
34 01/28/08 10:19 PM | Comment Link |Helen - not bad for an almost atheist
Comment by: Jim Henderson
35 01/28/08 10:21 PM | Comment Link |Church Assimilation Pastors take note:
Comment by: benjamin ady
36 01/28/08 11:57 PM | Comment Link |yeah, assimilation–like the Borg.
=)
“Consume me from the inside out”
To me, this lyric is kind of an inadvertent acknowledgment that the supernatural being about whom one is singing is rather a terrifying personage. I mean isn’t the theology, at least according to some, that God required Jesus to be tortured to death on a Roman execution device with an extra layer of cosmic abandonment thrown in? That sounds a bit like the consumption described in the lyric.
It’s a legitimate request, from one perspective. Like the kind of request a crazy holy mystic makes of a crazy holy God. But they sing it so blandly. One suspects they don’t really connect with it at that level, and would rather not *actually* undergo such a consumption. Or maybe I just don’t get it?
This sort of wierd disconnect happens *all* the time for me with lyrics in worship services. I mean it did, back before I mostly stopped going to church.
Comment by: Traci
37 01/29/08 5:05 AM | Comment Link |BENJAMIN: God is a scary mofo, huh?
Your well-put comment is a whole new sentiment for this blog.
Churchies? Gonna bite into that one?
Comment by: Helen
38 01/29/08 5:20 AM | Comment Link |Beth can you include the following in your unladylike book for DUMBASS Christians (I hope you write the unladylike version): “How to be hospitable without being a stalker”. Evidently it needs explaining.
Benjamin, yes, I wondered about that. I find “consume me” rather scary in two ways.
First, the ‘CONSUME’ part. It’s not exactly fun to be burned up in a fire. There’s a Bible verse (maybe you remember it) which says ” [let us] worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, for our “God is a consuming fire.” (Hebrews 12)
But I’m guessing this song was not exactly sung with ‘reverence and awe’. It was probably sung more like “ooooh, Jesus you’re my best friend…”
I don’t see how the “God is terrifying” is helpful to anyone. But if it isn’t then change the words of the song rather than singing “consume me” as if it’s some fun cutsey ‘Best Friends Forever’ concept.
I used to think contemporary Christian worship music was an improvement on boring hymns but then I began to feel that much of contemporary Christian worshp music was a self-indulgent emotional/ego trip and since then it has really turned me off. I suppose that happened when I realized ‘getting emotional’ doesn’t necessarily make people better people even though there’s a perception it does.
Anyway…second, ‘consume ME’ sounds, as lots of Christian teaching does, like the negation of who I am. It sounds like I am supposed to not exist any more, only ‘Jesus in me’ whatever that is supposed to mean. I think when Jesus says ‘lose your life to find it’ it comes across - to me at least -that he means, think of others as well as yourself. But the language in letters attributed to Paul like “reckon yourself DEAD” is…confusingly invalidating I think.
Basically I have no interest in any supernatural being ‘consuming me’.
But if someone wants to make me a better person then I’d like to be open to that.
Comment by: Beth Bates
39 01/29/08 5:46 AM | Comment Link |DOES ANYONE ELSE NOTICE this lyric serves as a projective (like a Rorschach) test?
Read through the responses and try to match the author with the theology:
Comment by: Claudia
40 01/29/08 8:37 AM | Comment Link |There’s at least one big difference–Rorschach tests are randomized. Both readings of that lyric are drawing directly from a shared knowledge of what the word “consumes” denotes; what it connotes in this context is where the differences in interpretation come in.
Which may seem like splitting hairs, but it’s important because it means that there aren’t an infinite number of ways you could interpret that line. Things that are consumed are destroyed in a process that changes them to something else. So the line has to be read as an invitation to self-destruction in the interests of transformation, right? All interpretations here agree on that, in any case. The resultant differences all come down to the value judgements people bring to the idea of being annihilated (eh? eh?) in the interests of being transformed into something not-self.
All this is to say that you really can’t get away from the fact that it’s a celebration of self-negation. It’s only positive if you believe that self (or part of one’s self) is really in need of negation.
Comment by: benjamin ady
41 01/29/08 8:41 AM | Comment Link |rorschach test. That’s great! Now we need a rorschach lyricologist, who can interpret our responses to tell us interesting things about ourselves. “People who responded to the lyric like you tend to have the following traits: …”
=)
Mine would be something like: “A bit off the beaten path. Friends often think of this person as a bit strange or weird. Highly intelligent. Open minded. Loves words and finds them important. A voracious reader.”
Comment by: Jim Henderson
42 01/29/08 8:46 AM | Comment Link |Cs deserve to have their lyrics parsed as long as they say “everyone welcome” on the outdoor sign but lyrics are often not real anyway - they are pleas for something people would like to have happen
most love songs have this element of unreality
Having said that - I agree many C lyrics are pretty empty
Comment by: Missy Welsch
43 01/29/08 9:16 AM | Comment Link |Yeah, you just can’t beat “Paradise by the Dashboard Lights” as far as I’m concerned. Doesn’t get any better than that.
But, back to the lyrics, isn’t “consume me” a simple plea (one I probably need to make) to momentarily choose to stop being so full of ourselves and our obscured view of God/life in order to receive? I, for one, run when I “hear” the sentiment that we are NOTHING because isn’t the most comforting of all truths the fact that we are PRECIOUS in God’s sight? He runs to us! (prodigal son image)
Comment by: Lysha Broad
44 01/29/08 10:55 AM | Comment Link |By the way, Traci and Beth, I’m loving your posts. You make my lunch periods go by very quickly. :)
So speaking of “C” song lyrics…Not only can they seem empty, but sometimes downright confusing! Like, “My Glorious”, for example. Apparently, it’s supposed to be one of these songs that moves you through the 4 or 5 (or however many) stages of personal worship (haha), AND it’s one that’s supposed to really rock out, yet I can’t help thinking of the guy from Lord of the Rings (was it Smeigel? I can’t remember how to spell it…sorry) who says, very creepily, “My precious…” Anyway, I digress.
Keep up the good work, ladies. You rock. :)
Comment by: Helen
45 01/29/08 11:07 AM | Comment Link |Claudia wrote:
Exactly.
So Beth what do YOU think it means? Or are you not going to comment because you don’t want us to analyse (analyze, Traci) you based on the results? :)
Comment by: Beth Bates
46 01/29/08 11:14 AM | Comment Link |Well. Is it self-negating to be so in love with your husband or newborn to the point where you feel “consumed” with the experience? I’m not here to defend a lyric, but I just think there’s more than one interpretation that isn’t necessarily nefarious. I’m consumed with this project at times, but it fills me as it consumes me. Same with my babies. I like to feel that kind of consumed. It’s a good thing. Like my Dove bar feels pretty good about itself when I consume it. ;)
Projective tests, regardless of the number of answers, still reveals a glimpse of a person.
Comment by: Beth Bates
47 01/29/08 11:16 AM | Comment Link |And isn’t the second post that’s come back around to lyrics? When are we going to see some Ween lyrics on here, Traci?
Comment by: Helen
48 01/29/08 12:22 PM | Comment Link |Beth, ok, I concede the winning explanation to you - I think yours is more consistent with where contemporary Christian worship music is at.
Do you sometimes feel consumed by Jesus and what’s that like?
Comment by: Claudia
49 01/29/08 1:56 PM | Comment Link |If the experience takes you out of a sense of insular selfhood, then yep, it would be self-negating. Another word we use for loss of selfhood is “transcendence”–so it’s not necessarily nefarious, and it’s not necessarily unpleasant. But I think it goes to the heart of what religious experience is, so the lyric’s actually a great point for a non-religious person to seize on in trying to wrap his/her mind around the whys and hows of religion in general.
And, in the interests of equal parsing opportunities:
“And all the hippies gonna lick the mind of god?”–Ween, Mushroom Festival in Hell
Discuss.
Comment by: Beth Bates
50 01/29/08 2:53 PM | Comment Link |First I’d like to give you, Claudia, a big fat thanks for the Ween lyric! Ahhh. Did someone open a window?
Consumed with Luv or the thrill of the new mother feel didn’t deplete me, but it would if I had a steady diet of it. Consume can also connote being totally engaged with. I would add “empowered by,” even though I might be wrong. There’s my projective test nakedness.
I’m not familiar with the rest of the song. I wonder if we’re taking it out of context? You know. Like some believers with Scripture. I wonder what the rest of the song says.
Thanks again for the Ween.
Comment by: Helen
51 01/29/08 3:38 PM | Comment Link |Beth are these the lyrics for Jesus consume me from the inside out?
There’s a video of the song being sung on the left hand side of the page.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
52 01/29/08 4:17 PM | Comment Link |I have - it feels good
Comment by: Jim Henderson
53 01/29/08 4:19 PM | Comment Link |I would probably call it being consumed with Jesus rather than by him . The by him does seem a but weird to me in that it draws too much attention to me instead of him. Like I’m special for being sooooo spiritual that he consumes me -
Anyway - lets do a Beatles song next
Comment by: Beth Bates
54 01/29/08 4:19 PM | Comment Link |Yeah, Helen. What Papa Bear said.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
55 01/29/08 4:21 PM | Comment Link |Helen
If you actually found the lyrics you spend too much time on line. How can any of us compete with you?
Comment by: Helen
56 01/29/08 4:51 PM | Comment Link |Jim wrote:
I’m glad you said the part about ‘it draws too much attention to me’ - I was feeling the song seemed very ‘me’-ish but wasn’t sure if that was just because it pushes all my buttons. (It pushes my buttons because I seriously wonder whether these sorts of songs lead people the wrong way by making them FEEL spiritual yet they don’t lead people to do anything more Jesus-like in their day to day lives. And that bothers me.)
Jim, the lyrics only took moments to find with Google. It’s amazingly useful if you’re looking for something!
Comment by: Lisa
57 01/29/08 8:05 PM | Comment Link |Remember “Let’s get physical” by Olivia Newton John? The church we went to when I was around 10 or 12 would sing “Let’s get Spiritual” to the same tune.
I remember at that age thinking it was weird. I don’t remember what they changed the lyrics to, with the line “let me hear your body talk”.
Comment by: benjamin ady
58 01/29/08 9:39 PM | Comment Link |aaaaaahhhhhhh! Gag-ola.
(I do hope my reaction isn’t too offensive to anyone. But I just find that *so* offputting. Not intellectually–just raw emotional offputtingness)
Like this
Comment by: Jim Henderson
59 01/29/08 11:05 PM | Comment Link |I think we can get that covered with Romans 12 or I Cor 12
I always found the “body” metaphor for the church to have limits
and thanks Helen for the Google tip- I’ll check it out
Comment by: Maya
60 01/30/08 9:41 AM | Comment Link |Traci & Beth:
I was at Covenant Community and now have been reading all your past posts when I should be working! First of all, two writers, freelance writers! Two women I admire as I hope to be doing that one day, hopefully sooner than later. And then Beth had to go and mention Design*Sponge which I made an excited motion to and everyone surrounding me said I was giddy!
Getting past my now “fan” part of it…thank you BOTH for opening our minds. For making us realize how funny a lyric can sound, for challenging us in relationships we have to go deeper and be different.
Beth, I identify with the opening of homes and the C stress that seems to come with that. You’ve challenged me to take a look at how our family fills our lives with busy stuff instead of authenticity.
Could write forever…looking forward to following this and reading your future book!
Comment by: Beth Bates
61 01/30/08 10:30 AM | Comment Link |Oh thanks, Maya, for your kind words.
I need to credit Traci for sharing with me the good news of Design*Sponge. She showed me the way.
It’s easy, especially for us creative types, to raise the bar for ourselves a little too high when it comes to opening our homes. I mean, making place cards out of fall leaves and a pumpkin themed croquembouche is an irresistible creative challenge. And so pretty!
Our most gratifying parties/get togethers have been the last minute, dirty house, pizza and beer (or Coke) gatherings. I highly recommend making those a habit while you’re still defining what kind of home you want to create, before you can afford to splurge on the fun decorating extras.
I hope to meet you at Grace!
Comment by: karen
62 01/30/08 10:49 AM | Comment Link |ROTFL!! Man, that takes me back to my MOPS days. Whew …. ;-)
Comment by: Beth Bates
63 01/30/08 11:49 AM | Comment Link |Ah, the sweet, sweet days of MOPS.
Comment by: Laurie
64 02/1/08 8:43 AM | Comment Link |thoughts on hospitality…
do you think that two mandates to C’s… 1. evangelism and 2. the purpose driven life.. have made the thought of having a visit with someone outside the clan scary? Kind of like.. the master violinist shows you how to play.. tells you you should play.. and then hands you the violin. The thought of making the kind of scratching, mewing, screeching notes keeps you from even trying.
It’s like what happens is your CHALLENGE/PROBLEM. And, if you don’t get the right outcome - you have failed…
What if C’s have accepted a burden that they shouldn’t have?
Comment by: Helen
65 02/1/08 8:53 AM | Comment Link |Laurie, what you said is why we encourage Doable Evangelism.
Comment by: Laurie
66 02/1/08 8:58 AM | Comment Link |thinking about the idea of a terrifying God…
can’t quite get the analogy right but here goes:
For those of us with great Dads, can we remember those toddler years - of being held and comforted, giggled with, and sung over… can we perhaps remember a time when we had a splinter?or an abrasion? and our Dads gently cared for us in spite of our screaming… and, don’t know if anyone has experienced an intruder - but I would hope that a Dad would not be all kumbaya with him - but would throw his body forward to protect his family - and use all the force at his disposal.
These kinds of experiences have their parallel in my spiritual journey. In the early years, I felt very loved by and friendly with God. Yet, as I matured, there were times when I saw my injuries and deficiencies and experienced some of the painful but good healing process initiated by and sustained by God. And, unfortunately, I have seen some of the dark side of life. I have felt comforted as I have learned of God’s anger towards evils such as child abuse and greed.
Comment by: Traci
67 02/1/08 11:29 AM | Comment Link |LAURIE: From an outsider’s perspective, your learning “of God’s anger toward evils such as child abuse and greed” is interesting. I’m curious how you learned about that anger and how you come to accept the idea of an all-powerful God allowing those things. I think that last bit especially is a tough one.
Comment by: Beth Bates
68 02/1/08 11:33 AM | Comment Link |BTW. Back to the Christian social-aversion issue, I recognize that people might plain not like my husband and me. I think many more conventional people really don’t know what to do with us, given our significant age difference. People might look at us and figure they would have nothing in common with us. We really are an odd couple.