Beth and Traci: Groovy Presbyterian Ladies in Sensible Shoes
“Embed! Embed!” Traci shot to me under her breath as we were dismissed from our Tuesday morning visit to the Women Alive group at Tabernacle Presbyterian Church in downtown Indianapolis.
Throughout the hour of teaching by the delightful author and pastoral counselor Marilyn Ryerson, Traci’s guffawing outbursts (at appropriate moments) signaled that she was enjoying Women Alive as much as I was. But I did not expect my atheist friend to share my ardent desire to return.
“That was a nutty, nutty morning!” she said on our drive deeper into the city for lunch at her favorite diner. “For all sorts of reasons.”
“Totally! But I’m curious - in what ways did you find it nutty?” I asked.
“Well, for one thing. It made me want to go back - just for my own enjoyment!”
“Yep. You know that’s how the Holy Spirit works, right? He’s drawing you,” I said, tongue in cheek. Sorta.
Traci chuckled. “And how about Ann?” she continued, “I just plain want to know that woman.”
Ann was the zesty, laugh-out-loud funny contact woman with whom I had corresponded via email as I charted our itinerary. Her group, Women Alive, is one of the few women’s ministries I’ve found with a drop-in format. Most studies in the area require advance registration and preparation.
As the group’s leader and guitar player, Ann broke the ice with sardonic humor in the Anne Lamott tradition, instantly warming Lamottian me with an early reference to Ms. Lamott’s self assessment as a “left wing, foul-mouthed Jesus freak.” (She also quoted Brian McLaren, but I’ll let Traci elaborate on Ann in her next post.)
I shared Traci’s enthusiasm but felt torn and concerned that our assignment was about to take a sharp turn into unplanned territory. Should we embed and end our Church Rater tour? Would attending a group regularly become the direction of our story? Could we do both? While her little angel chowed on chips, Traci and I volleyed various scenarios over Vietnamese noodle salad and a roast beef and turkey melt.
How could twenty unassuming, orthopedically correct Presbyterian ladies charm us off course so easily? One lady’s “BSF police”-spirited admonition to Traci’s scrumptious two year-old son to “Look, don’t touch!” notwithstanding, these women were cooler than cool. (Is it me? Or am I overly sensitive to visitors being scolded?)
How were they cool?
First: The shoes. As we closed in prayer I peaked at the floor and noticed feet clad in Crocs, Danskos, Clarks, Naturalizers and tennies. Before Traci picked me up that morning, I had changed out of my comfy Dansko clogs. Since she would be wearing her hot, pointy-toed boots, I thought I’d better do that fashion thing ladies do to fit in and wear my fancy, high-heeled boots. (At least that’s what we affluent suburb dwellers tend to do - dress to be sized up by the other fashion-minded affluent suburb dwellers.)
Second: These women, whose ages varied from thirties to seventies, were transparent in their sharing and comfortable with one another’s struggles, strengths and history in a familial way.
Third: Though the content was clearly and orthodoxly Biblical (drawn from the broken cisterns in Jeremiah 2:13), the application was practical and accessible to both of us.
I could add to the list but will yield to space limitations.
After thoughtful consideration we’ve decided to continue our plan to sample off the church tour buffet. As Traci put it, “Now that we’re out of there, far from the alluring pull of Marilyn and Ann, I think we need to keep going to different events. We’d have a killer time there, but what would that have to do with our project, really?”
Not to say we won’t go back a second time to see if the glory of our first visit was just a fluke. I’ll wear my Birkenstocks.
Comment by: Traci
1 01/22/08 6:33 PM | Comment Link |GOOD LORD but the Tabernacle ladies were wacky, wild, smart, and friggin’ hilarious. They should sell tickets to those meetings.
Comment by: Beth Bates
2 01/22/08 6:37 PM | Comment Link |Amen to that, my bold and beautiful atheist friend.
Comment by: Helen
3 01/22/08 7:53 PM | Comment Link |Wow - sounds like a wonderful group!
I think it’s interesting the Holy Spirit drew Traci at this meeting but not at the other two ;-).
Comment by: pamhogeweide
4 01/22/08 8:10 PM | Comment Link |What a fun read. You guys are a hoot to eavesdrop in on. I wish you lived in my area. I can think of a couple of women things I’d love to invite you to. Oh hey, Beth, do the Women of Faith still do their tour thing? You’ve so got to check if they are coming to your area. I would LOVE to hear Traci’s perspective on that.
Comment by: Amy
5 01/22/08 8:40 PM | Comment Link |Oh dear, I thought my Dansko’s were trendy and upscale!
This is fun. Hallelujah! (crossing all language barriers)
Comment by: Jim Henderson
6 01/22/08 11:06 PM | Comment Link |No Danskos for me - My wife has the Black Patent versions (as well as my daughter and mother in law) but I am intrigued to hear more from Traci about her observations- Is that the next segment?
Questions I have for Traci
Sounds like you actually enjoyed this experience (holy spirit or not)what was it that engaged you?
What surprised you (in a good way)?
Do you think Beth really likes you regardless of whether you ever became a Christian or not- Why? What does she do to convince you of that?
Comment by: Beth Bates
7 01/23/08 6:52 AM | Comment Link |Black Patent leather Danskos? You must live in a more upscale area than I do. That’s fancy.
Traci’s scheduled to post her “Tab” impressions tomorrow.
Comment by: Traci
8 01/23/08 6:53 AM | Comment Link |Hey there, Jim. I’m at work on a juicy post about the experience that should be up sometime tomorrow and answers all but your last question.
So here goes:
My becoming a Christian definitely is not a condition of Beth’s friendship with me. I think my joking around with her all day and going sofa-shopping with her and having coffee or beers with her might be, but belief is not.
I’m not sure how to demonstrate that I know that except to tell you that her needing me to convert has never crossed my mind. Before we started this project, I think the topic of religion came up exactly once, when Beth told me that she was feeling great b/c of a particularly rollicking church service.
That’d be a stunningly subtle tactic, if that’s what it was. Wait — OH MY GOD . . . BETH, YOU’RE TRYING TO CONVERT ME, AREN’T YOU? With your “great message” this and “fired up” that. I SEE WHAT YOU’RE UP TO. I’m keeping an eye on you, Beth.
Comment by: Beth Bates
9 01/23/08 7:05 AM | Comment Link |DOH!
Comment by: Helen
10 01/23/08 7:57 AM | Comment Link |Beth: foiled again!!
Hey the women’s ministries webpage for the church hosting this meeting has mp3s of Marilyn Ryerson on it. I’m going to listen to one since Traci liked her so much.
Comment by: Traci
11 01/23/08 8:02 AM | Comment Link |I feel like I’m seeing clearly now for the first time. This explains why my kid came home from Beth’s house singing “Jesus Loves Me” and what that copy of The Case for Faith is doing on my desk.
You think you know a person . . .
Comment by: Beth Bates
12 01/23/08 8:26 AM | Comment Link |And you should have seen his precious little heathen face light up when we sang it.
And hey - for the record! I have never Strobelized Traci (or anyone else for that matter, proud to say). Getting her to read Jim and Casper was hard enough - SNAP!
Comment by: Jim Henderson
13 01/23/08 8:51 AM | Comment Link |This is a compliment I hope more Cs will be able to hear from Non Cs
Comment by: Beth Bates
14 01/23/08 11:30 AM | Comment Link |I think it might take Traci more open-mindedness to be friends with me than the other way around.
PAM - I’ll have to turn in my badge. What’s Women of Faith?
Comment by: Traci
15 01/23/08 12:08 PM | Comment Link |BETH: It’s not the Jesus-following that requires open-mindedness as much as your addiction to the Enchanted soundtrack.
I sort of did worry when I came out of the heathen closet to you that my beliefs would be a wedge, but thankfully no. I think we both tense up a little and proceed on little cat feet when we do talk about our God views, and that’s probably good. A sign of respect and of treasuring each other.
Otherwise, what we have going here is just like the friendships I have with my atheist girlfriends — we crack each other up, support each other, piss each other off, talk about some heavy shit now and then, drink bloody Marys, admire Ricky Gervais.
When something God-y pops out of your mouth in passing, I sometimes have a moment of “Oh yeah — she’s into that. Forgot.” Which I hope doesn’t belittle your Christian-ness but says something about how very easy it is for an atheist to be friends with a Christian like you — someone sharp, thoughtful, and very open. Someone who listens. And who isn’t all, “Hey! Have you heard the good news?”
Comment by: Amy
16 01/23/08 12:45 PM | Comment Link |I wish all of us Christians could be as open-minded with each other as you two are with each other. And - - - how can one not be addicted to the Enchanted soundtrack, anyway?
Comment by: Missy Welsch
17 01/23/08 4:39 PM | Comment Link |Okay, I’m not the only one scratching my head about “Enchanted”…
Comment by: Missy Welsch
18 01/23/08 5:29 PM | Comment Link |A big “yeah” to the women at Tabernacle Pres. I do think, however, that the solution for the scolding behavior (Helen: behaviour) should be to busy the Scolder with, say, the task of counting heads FROM THE BACK OF THE ROOM where they can do the least amount of damage. One of our local Walmart greeters somehow maintains her post even though she seems to greet in a scolding manner. Is that even possible?? I do not think that it’s in the Walmart Employee Handbook, that’s for darn sure.
Comment by: Beth Bates
19 01/23/08 5:50 PM | Comment Link |Hey! Have you heard the good news?!
Comment by: Helen
20 01/23/08 6:03 PM | Comment Link |Missy thanks for providing the correct spelling just for me :)
(This is not just to Missy) I listened to some of the first recording - the one labelled #2. She’s a good speaker, but I didn’t much care for it because she kept talking about SIN - it was too extreme for me, the way she painted us as desperate and hopeless because of sin, except for Jesus (which isn’t much help to atheists).
Then I listened to some of #6 to give her another chance. That one was practical tips for improving marriage and nothing about sin per se. The tips were very good.
I don’t really understand why Christians don’t notice that they didn’t need all that stuff about sin (from #2) to, for example, in #6 give some great marriage tips that would work for anyone. Speaking for myself I like the tips and am not the least interested in the sin talk (which wouldn’t help my marriage at all).
Comment by: Brett
21 01/23/08 7:25 PM | Comment Link |“Enchanted”? I’m in the dark. Also scratching my head over Ricky Gervais. Google, here I come.
Comment by: Laura
22 01/23/08 7:35 PM | Comment Link |The Enchanted Soundtrack is out? Where have I been? That will be a a must-have in my household!
Anyway, my 15 year old daughter Bethany, has been reading this over my shoulder and has some questions.
Bethany asks–
Traci do you think that Beth is an abnormal Christian? Do you think that most christians are hypocrites (b/c lets all face it many if not most do)and if that, do you have any christian friends that are a little hypocrital and/or over-bearing about their faith and yours? And has Beth’s demeanor changed your perception of Christians?
Laura again–
Apparently this was the topic at youth group tonight in her small group. Be prepared, I don’t think you’ve heard the last of her. Great job ladies, I am really enjoying the dialogue and the Anne Lamott-ness of your conversation. Looking forward to reading more!
Comment by: Beth Bates
23 01/23/08 7:45 PM | Comment Link |The “Enchanted” soundtrack is the music I use to scrub out the folds in my brain after a ride in the car with Traci’s “Ween” CD. Amy Adams is vocal springtime even though, artistically speaking, she’s no Amy Winehouse. (But at least she still has all her teeth.)
But really. How can you beat lyrics like
Maybe any Christian-Atheist tension works itself out in each other’s cars in the music we play, leaving our friendship intact. (Excellent observation on the music, Traci. I didn’t know “Enchanted” made you squirm so. I’ll switch to “Hairspray” or “Spamalot” next time I drive.)
Let’s keep taking turns driving. It’s all good.
p.s. Traci, your above characterization of our friendship touched me. I feel the same way. I treasure you - your precious husband and child too.
Comment by: Brett
24 01/23/08 7:54 PM | Comment Link |Gosh, I’m feeling so left out of the musical conversation here. . . I saw Todd Rundgren the other night, and he has a song called “Fascist Christ.” Does that count? It’s kind of interesting. Not so much a slam on Jesus, per se, but more on church as a controlling institution. I know, it’s no “Enchanted” soundtrack, but it’s the best I could come up with under pressue like this. And now I don’t know who “Ween” is, either. Just when I thought I was kinda, sorta, marginally hip. . .
Comment by: Missy Welsch
25 01/23/08 8:05 PM | Comment Link |You mention Todd Rundgren and I can’t help but remember: “S-L-U-T! She may be a slut but she looks good to me.” But I digress…
Comment by: Beth Bates
26 01/23/08 8:07 PM | Comment Link |…Ladies and gentlemen, my former pastor’s wife sister. Missy Welsch.
Comment by: Traci
27 01/23/08 8:58 PM | Comment Link |BETHANY (and LAURA): You asked
Beth is abnormal, but I can’t vouch for her normalness within the confines of Christianity. Ba-dum CHING!
I tend not to hang out with people who are overbearing about their faith because they are a drag, but I’ve never imagined that being overbearing is part and parcel of being Christian. I once knew a woman who couldn’t get through a conversation without trying to sell Pampered Chef crap. THAT’s overbearing.
And the world is rife with hypocrites, but certainly Christians haven’t cornered the market on hypocrisy. That said, I do know some heller hypocritical Christians. I think it might be easier not to be dubbed hypocritical when you’re not expected to live by some outdated (and perhaps misinterpreted or even poorly translated) rules. Just saying.
I’ve also known Christians who’ve never given a moment’s careful consideration to what they believe, which in my view is another form of hypocrisy. You really can’t claim you believe something if you haven’t thought about it deeply.
Has Beth’s demeanor changed my perception of Christians? I’d like to answer no, to be able to say that I had no prejudices myself, but of course that’s nonsense. Beth isn’t my only Christian friend — I mean, c’mon; you people are EVERYWHERE — but she’s my closest, and she brought me in on this project where I’m rubbing elbows with Christians every other danged day, and they don’t ALL try to get me to convert.
I’m told that for many Christians, being a non-Christian is a deal-breaker for forming a friendship, but I haven’t encountered that. (Or if I have I never knew because that person and I had no reason to try to get to know each other anyway.)
If somebody’s going to make me laugh, make me think, feed me, or mix me drinks, then I’m happy to see what kind of chemistry we have. I might find out they’re non-believers I have nothing in common with. Then again they may be believers that I can talk to for hours. I’d hate to miss out on the latter because of some stupid stringent “no Christians” rule.
Thanks for asking. Nice to have you here.
Comment by: Brett
28 01/24/08 8:44 PM | Comment Link |Hey, Missy - He played that song. Seriously. Totally rocked.
Comment by: Lisa
29 01/25/08 6:05 AM | Comment Link |Traci, you and I, so far, have similar thought processes. I really appreciate what you said about Christians not having the corner market on hypocrisy. I have personally met several hypocrites in the bars. I finally came to the conclusion that there are beautiful people and ass holes everywhere you go.
Comment by: DuWayne
30 02/1/08 7:32 PM | Comment Link |This is in response to Helen, (20)
I checked out this blog because my wife was at the meeting. I am glad you got something out of #6, the talk on marriage but I am surprised you got nothing out of #2, the sin topic since it is the topic that is relevent to all people, Christians and non-christians alike. Marriage excludes a lot of people, like my single daughter.
I have enjoyed following this blog because I believe Christianity is primarily about relationships, with God and with each other and sin hinders all relationships whether you claim to be Christian or not. This blog is building relationships so keep it up. Most religions are anti-relationship and even some Christian denominations fall into that trap. So forget labels and denominatons. I believe that true Christianity is simply a living relationship with God. That makes me more willing to develope relationships with others, whoever they are.
Comment by: Helen
31 02/2/08 11:05 AM | Comment Link |Thanks for your comment, DuWayne. I understand what you’re saying about the marriage talk, although in my opinion there was practical information in that talk which could be applied to any relationship we care about maintaining/improving. So a single person could apply it too.
Some of the things I heard in that talk have reminded me to be careful how I talk to my husband. So it was practical, relevant and applicable.
I didn’t hear any practical advice that I’ve been applying in the sin talk.
On the whole the arguments that relationships are what matters and sin hinders relationships make a lot of sense to me. I agree with you that it’s a big problem when a religion becomes anti-relationship.
However I still don’t think it’s necessary to lay a foundation of conservative Christian doctrine about sin, etc. to give practical tips about marriage. Or about being a better person. Why not just say “Here are some practical doable suggestions for how to be a better person”?
Comment by: annamarie
32 02/2/08 1:35 PM | Comment Link |okay , so I’m the one with the “look don’t touch” admonition for the 2 year old. I had a precious antique paper doll house on the table, so do you let your 2 year old play with delicate things? and I thought he was beautiful, too, but not his little fingers!
Comment by: Claudia
33 02/3/08 12:51 PM | Comment Link |Suffer the little children, Annamarie. Suffer the little children.
Comment by: Helen
34 02/3/08 3:59 PM | Comment Link |Thanks for stopping by, Annamarie.
Could you have moved the doll’s house during the meeting? I don’t know if that would have been doable. I do know how hard it is to stop a young child touching things.
I expect it was a frustrating situation for you if you weren’t expecting any small children to be at the meeting, so you didn’t know you needed to be ready for that eventuality.