Beth and Traci and the Looks on Their Faces
“These women will think you’re going to hell,” a concerned Christian friend warned me when I explained Beth’s and my plan to visit women’s ministries. I was stunned: I’d forgotten about hell and certainly about anybody thinking I’d go there because I’m an atheist. (Easy enough when you don’t subscribe to the theory.) The warning stuck in my head and held my tongue at the spiritual formation workshop at Grace Community Church in Noblesville, Indiana, where right away one of the women at our table asked me where I went to church.
“I don’t,” I said, leaving out the part about my being an atheist — a big, phony, coward of an atheist if I couldn’t spit it out. I hadn’t finished lambasting myself when Beth made up for my omission during the introductions segment of the event.
“I’m Beth, and I’ve attended Grace for five years. This is my friend Traci, who’s an atheist. We’re writing a book together about women’s ministries.”
My own feelings were on Beth’s face. She was nervous about letting the non-believing cat out of the bag, maybe as filled with dread as I was about seeing horror on the women’s faces. We’d planned to tell people what we were up to; it seemed like the only fair thing to do. But I wondered whether the women who belonged in the room for the discussion of soul health would want to sit elsewhere and leave us alone — two at a table for ten.
Why wouldn’t they? What the hell was I doing there, anyway? I’d leave, I thought, if they got too freaked out, head home to cuddle my atheist husband on our safe sofa in our big, godless living room. Put the whole project behind me. He and I would talk about it years later: “Remember that time you planned to go to church with Beth? Man, that was stupid.”
I winced when Beth said the words.
Nobody else did.
Beth might as well have announced that four out of five dentists prefer Trident. I didn’t see even a flicker of surprise, let alone the shock I’d expected.
“Welcome!” one of the women said.
“So good to have you here,” said another.
Obviously, I had no idea what I was getting into.
(Thanks, ladies.)
Comment by: Eliza
1 01/12/08 6:28 PM | Comment Link |What a nice surprise, to be welcomed warmly (once the cup of coffee thing was out of the way), without a blink!
Here’s a guess: these ladies might have been thinking that you’re going to hell, but secure in the possibility that could be changed & that you had come to the right place to get started on that change - ? (We won’t know - but maybe someone who has been a Christian meeting an atheist unexpectedly could chime in with their interpretation…)
Comment by: Helen
2 01/13/08 6:25 AM | Comment Link |Traci, I’m really glad they were welcoming. It certainly makes going into a place full of strangers easier.
I expect Eliza’s right - these women were pleased that you’d come to the right place to have your beliefs and eternal destiny changed.
The idea you’re going to hell (whether true or not) probably shocks you more than the Christians who believe that, because they’re used to thinking most people are going there.
Comment by: Traci
3 01/13/08 7:22 AM | Comment Link |I was in church, so it makes sense that people there would think that I wanted to change, but it’s interesting to me (and this is something I’ve seen in other forums) that atheism seems like a default position to so many believers. As if I’m an atheist because I just haven’t yet had the opportunity to believe and that I can be convinced or worse — that I WANT to be convinced. The truth is that I’ve thought very intensely about belief and nonbelief and worked out a personal philosophy that I feel strongly about.
At any rate, I couldn’t have asked for a better place to dip in my heathen toes into the churchy waters.
Comment by: Helen
4 01/13/08 7:47 AM | Comment Link |Traci, that’s been my experience too - many Christians assume people are atheists because they haven’t looked closely at Christianity.
But maybe many atheists (not necessarily you) assume people are Christians because they’ve never looked closely enough at what they believe to ‘find the flaws in it’.
It probably cuts both ways.
Like you said, I’m very glad your first experience went better than you thought it might. I would think it would have been hard to continue this project if the very first meeting had been an unpleasant experience.
Comment by: Friendly Christian » Archive » Beth And Traci Go To Church
5 01/14/08 6:54 AM | Comment Link |[...] Traci posted Beth and Traci and the Looks on Their Faces this weekend. Leave a [...]
Comment by: Lisa
6 01/14/08 8:27 AM | Comment Link |Traci, you wrote, “The truth is that I’ve thought very intensely about belief and nonbelief and worked out a personal philosophy that I feel strongly about.”
Could you elaborate on that personal philsophy? I don’t want to put you in an uncomfortable position, I’m simply curious.
Comment by: Adam Clark
7 01/14/08 12:03 PM | Comment Link |When I meet Atheists at my Church or whatever the thought ‘they are going to hell’ is the furthest thought from my mind. I have a lot of atheist friends and friends that struggle with the concept of God.
I simply want to be your friend. Sure, I want you to know the immense care and love that I feel from God and how blessed my life has been from him since I know him now.
The fact that I am not going to hell anymore isn’t the reason I love God.
I love God because he loves me. I have a relationship with him because that’s what he wants.
Comment by: Helen
8 01/14/08 12:09 PM | Comment Link |Adam, even though it’s far from your mind when you meet atheists, do you believe atheists are going to hell?
Comment by: Traci
9 01/14/08 1:12 PM | Comment Link |This is getting juicy.
HELEN: It cuts both ways, absolutely, and I don’t think that any unexamined belief is legit.
LISA: Briefly — God is a comfy myth around whom some great and some terrible things happen. Morals stem not from God or religion but from reason. Life matters. Do nothing that prohibits you from respecting yourself in the morning. (After college, anyway.)
ADAM: I appreciate your comments, one of which fascinates me. I am earnestly and intensely curious how you know God loves you. What does it mean to have a relationship with him?
I don’t know how to show in text that I’m not trying to provoke you with that very big question. If you were here, I’d be looking at you with my “Wow — tell me more” face and pouring you a glass of wine. But you’re not, so please know that I ask it with respect.
Comment by: Missy Welsch
10 01/14/08 5:13 PM | Comment Link |‘As if I’m an atheist because I just haven’t yet had the opportunity to believe and that I can be convinced or worse — that I WANT to be convinced.”
Traci, your helpful comments remind me of what my college roommate said to me as I spoke to her of my personal faith. She urged me to be careful not to speak to her about my faith as if she believed the same things. (she was Jewish) It helped me to step back and refrain from using the jargon I’d learned from church, christian friends, my background. It helps me now, years later, to honor her simple request and refrain from speaking that language. Turns out, we usually develop our own language if we begin to move away from what has always been the “known” to the unknown.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
11 01/15/08 2:38 PM | Comment Link |Christians feel exactly the same way quite often
Comment by: Brett
12 01/15/08 5:47 PM | Comment Link |Putting God aside for a second, does anyone (Christian, non, or other) REALLY believe in Hell?
Comment by: Claudia
13 01/16/08 8:45 AM | Comment Link |A good (modern) Catholic would tell you that hell is the absence of God’s love.
I personally have a theory: Modern physics says that time is neither linear nor consistent, right? It’s the way our brains process time that make us perceive it as such (because one of our major survival adaptations over time as a species is our ability to predict–makes sense that we’d need time to go in one direction and be fairly consistent). And one way to think about eternity is the absence of time. SO–I suspect that, at that last moment of life, when your brain stops, it perceives that last instant as going on forever, because it has no ability to process time in any way other than, again, consistent and linear. And if you’re OK in that last moment–unafraid, not in pain, happy with who you are and what you’ve done, etc., that last, perceived-as-eternal moment ain’t so bad–there’s your heaven. On the other hand, if you’re terrified or suffering or miserable, that moment processes as eternal and therefore hellish. And I suspect we get this shared
mythology (I mean that respectfully, but it’s the right word in this context) from a very few early instances when people had (don’t laugh) near-death experiences that approximated that perception that time stopped. And then, of course (if you’ll forgive the Marxism), over time you get your institutionalized, entrenched authorities that have an interest in controlling large populations living under less-than-ideal circumstances, and the dichotomous afterlife becomes a very handy way to do that: “Suck it up and suffer for someone else’s benefit in this life, and you’ll get yours next time around.”
Apologies, Helen, if this is off-topic, but (obviously) I thought that was a really interesting question. Will be interested to hear what others think…
Comment by: Helen
14 01/16/08 10:24 AM | Comment Link |Claudia that’s an interesting theory. That’s what I think :)
As for off-topic, I don’t want to shut down all conversation…
Comment by: Jody
15 01/18/08 2:38 PM | Comment Link |I’m sure this is elementary to say the topic of hell is a place spoken about in the Bible. As a matter of fact, many of the questions presented throughout this blog, like “how do you know that God loves you?” and “do you believe in hell?” can be addressed by reading the Bible. Which would also lend itself to a thorough investiagation of the christian message before making any final decisions one way or another. And just for the record, it’s a great read whether you believe in it or believe it.
That, of course, leads to the age old question, Is the Bible fact or fiction? Or how to interpret the stories as literal vs. symbolic,
I’ve been enjoying sitting back and reading. I had a few moments so thought I’d jump in on the action.
I’m enjoying the discussion.
jt
Comment by: Traci
16 01/18/08 3:38 PM | Comment Link |Jody,
Seems from the tone of your comment that you might’ve anticipated this, but I’m compelled anyway to point out that “for the bible tells me so” lacks persuasion for anyone not willing to suspend disbelief to at least some degree. (Divine inspiration? That’s a tough one.)
Thanks for reading and commenting.
Comment by: Beth Bates
17 01/18/08 3:55 PM | Comment Link |I agree, Jody, that the Bible is an excellent read, whether or not you believe in it literally, symbolically or somewhere in between.
The trouble my husband has, as do a great many atheists and others on the spectrum of the unbelieving I would guess, is the way we Christians throw around the Bible (which I believe is divinely written, Jody) like it has all the answers. My husband compares this simplistic approach to the answer to how to become a millionaire: “Well first, you get a million dollars.”
Comment by: Claudia
18 01/18/08 6:23 PM | Comment Link |Beth–your husband is hilarious. I’m so stealing that.
I remember particularly enjoying Deuteronomy and Revelations as a kid, what with all the juicy sex and violence. In fact, I remember kind of wondering why the grown-ups around didn’t have any problem with my reading it: “Don’t they know what’s in this thing?”
For those who believe that the Bible is the direct word of God: How do you reconcile some of the more infamous Old Testament passages with divine inspiration? If my husband dies and leaves me childless, are his brothers morally obligated to impregnate me? Would you actually suffer a witch to live? It seems that you have to bring SOME level of personal judgment and analysis to the reading, and once you’ve arrived at the conclusion that a certain passage is (1) intended for a very different historic audience, (2) metaphoric, or (2) hyperbolic, how do you decide which passages aren’t?
Comment by: Beth Bates
19 01/18/08 7:19 PM | Comment Link |Yeeeeehaw! Let the games begin!
Excellent points! Excellent questions! Obviously, as you say, much of it is cultural and intended for the times and not be taken literally, i.e. the passages you reference. And another good point is “How do ‘you’ reconcile…” That’s the point. I can’t reconcile it for anyone else. Each one has to figure it out. No matter how well I know Scripture, I can’t convince someone else of its veracity or historicity. It was (and continues to be) hard enough coming to terms with the confusing parts for myself. I can’t expect “the Bible says God loves us” to adequately answer Traci’s question “how do you know God loves you?” But I can study and question and read and wonder and ponder and struggle and doubt and mull and study etc. some more and accept it for myself.
Comment by: Claudia
20 01/18/08 7:42 PM | Comment Link |Thanks, Beth, for reading those questions in the tone they were intended–after I posted I realized that might’ve come off as confrontational, which wasn’t what I intended. I would love to hear more about your process of mulling/studying/struggling/etc.–are there guidelines you tend to follow, or patterns you recognize that lead you to read a given passage in a certain way? Or do you trust to some instinct or divine guidance or feeling to let you know at what point God’s really speaking directly to you through the book?
And another question for the group at large–again, hoping this doesn’t come off as confrontational, it’s just really, really interesting: Can any work OTHER than the Bible be divinely inspired?
Comment by: Eliza
21 01/19/08 7:40 PM | Comment Link |Not intending this response as confrontational, either but I was suddenly struck with this thought on reading Claudia’ question: EVERY work of writing or art is divinely inspired…because they are expressions of consciousness, language, wonder, imagination, & the ability to reflect, and it is so amazing that these abilities developed…however it came to pass.
Comment by: Brett
22 01/23/08 7:42 PM | Comment Link |Claudia, I like your theory. It’s quite provocative. Can I steal it for the plot of a short story? It reminds me of something Einstein observed about marriage: It’s based on taking one moment in time and trying to make it last forever. (For the record, that was Einstein’s observation on marriage, not mine.)
Comment by: Beth Bates
23 01/23/08 7:56 PM | Comment Link |Not wanting to drop such a provocative post, we’re moving the Claudia discussion for more dialog. Look for it on http://www.conversationattheedge.com/ sometime in the next day or two. (Sorry, Claudia, I’ve thought a bunch about your questions but haven’t had time to reply. But it’s too good to leave here.)
Comment by: Helen
24 01/24/08 7:54 AM | Comment Link |FYI I reposted Claudia’s comment #20 over on CatE (based on Beth’s suggestion):
How does God speak through the Bible (and other books)?
Comment by: Claudia
25 01/24/08 8:52 AM | Comment Link |Thanks, Beth/Helen! I’m looking forward to seeing what folks think. This is the most I’ve reexamined my personal beliefs about religion in a long time–so much better for me than reading Rock of Love recaps on Television without Pity. I owe all three of you for this.
Brett:
What,
Occurance at Owl Creek Bridge? Sure thing!