57 Responses to "Beth and Traci Go to Church"

• Comment by: Jeff

  1 01/6/08 9:46 PM | Comment Link |

  Traci the Dancer,

  I admire what you are doing. It is not easy being the “other”, or an outsider in church. I have gone to church all my life, and I do not always feel comfortable.

  I look forward to reading

  Jeff

• Comment by: Jim Henderson

  2 01/6/08 11:56 PM | Comment Link |

  We are soooo proud to have Beth and Traci on our blog. I love this interaction

  Traci: Is “enchanted by faith” a phrase I used? Sounds like I yearn for it, which isn’t the case. More like “intrigued by faith.” Better still: “intrigued and mystified.”
  Beth: I thought you said “enchanted.” I could be wrong.
  Traci: I think you want me to be enchanted.
  Beth: I don’t deny I have a desire for you to know and love Jesus, but I think “enchanted” might be ambitious. I can’t say that I’m always enchanted, particularly where church is concerned. Yes, I love me some rousing musical worship and insightful Bible teaching, but I’m more into God than “faith” or church. I think you’d dig Jesus, and I’d love for us to share the spiritual thing - not that our friendship is lacking. You know you had me at “restorative powers of Gomer Pyle.”

  You guys are very good

  Keep us in the loop

• Comment by: Helen

  3 01/7/08 7:36 AM | Comment Link |

  Beth and Traci, I’m excited you’re going ahead with this and I’m very much looking forward to hearing how the visits go!

  Thanks for sharing your Safari with us :)

• Comment by: Kristin

  4 01/7/08 8:39 AM | Comment Link |

  Hi Ladies,

  Good luck! Just one comment–

  Re: this statement: “The idea is for me, a long-time believer and veteran of women’s ministries, to function sort of as a tour guide for Traci, who admits to being enchanted by the idea of faith but born without the proper parts for believing.”

  It’s semantics, maybe, but I think it’s important to note that Traci, you do have the proper parts for believing — you just believe something different. Small difference in wording, huge difference in implications. :)

• Comment by: Amy

  5 01/7/08 9:17 AM | Comment Link |

  rock on! Jesus lover, and mother of the yummiest boy!

• Comment by: Susan

  6 01/7/08 9:21 AM | Comment Link |

  What a great learning adventure that you’re sharing with us! I look forward to hearing of your “tales from the road”. Brava for doing this!!!

• Comment by: Beth

  7 01/7/08 1:41 PM | Comment Link |

  Thank you for your good wishes to us on our Safari. For the pray-ers among you, please lift up this pursuit in prayer. For the non-pray-ers, wish us luck!

• Comment by: Missy Welsch

  8 01/7/08 4:11 PM | Comment Link |

  When my sister first told me of this idea, my first reaction was, “Huh?” I, too am in the believer column but a terrible skeptic, recovering pastors wife that I am. (I do well here in the “Show Me” state) I guess one thing I would say is that since I know that Beth admires Traci, this should be fun for both of the writers. Another thing worth sharing is that Beth is one of the most authentic people I know. As Traci and Beth embark on this effort, I offer Traci the gift of “Hmmmmm”, which is what I often find myself remarking when listening to churchchicks. To Beth, I offer the gift of “Whoa” which she will need as she views these churchchicks with a fresh perspective. Oh, and bring me back a few new casserole recipes.

• Comment by: Jim Henderson

  9 01/7/08 8:36 PM | Comment Link |

  terrible skeptic, recovering pastors wife

  nicely put - very interesting

• Comment by: Claudia

  10 01/7/08 9:26 PM | Comment Link |

  First reaction, reading what my rigorously rationalist friend Traci is up to? “Oh, no, I hope they don’t get her.”

  They? Get her? Scary moment when you realize that despite identifying as an urbane, well-rounded, reasonable woman of the world, you’re an anti-Christian bigot, and every bit as much of a hate-mongering jerk as the stereotypical Bible-thumper you scorn so.

  Traci, this proves it: you’re a better woman than me, for being secure enough to engage in this fairly and intellectually.

  Beth, we’ve never met, but I feel like I owe you an apology for that initial reaction. You sound like a lovely and talented person who is not trying to lure my dear friend into a cult. Still, would it be awful of me to send Traci some Bertrand Russell, just to be on the safe side?

• Comment by: Lisa

  11 01/7/08 9:50 PM | Comment Link |

  I’m excited to hear about your adventures. I’ve wondered if Traci’s will be a bit like mine when I went to the red light district in Amsterdam out of curiosity and also because it’s the “thing to do” when you’re in Amsterdam. I went about 2 pm when it felt safest, wandered around for about 5 min and said–”I’ve seen enough”. It’s always scary and intriguing to cross cultures. I believe anyone can adapt to any culture given enough time and an open mind and flexible attitude. It’ll be interesting to see if Traci’s world view perspectives will change while visiting this new culture.
  “Falling in love with Jesus” is a whole different ball game. My experience has been that Jesus reveals himself when I least expect him. He’s subtle and unobtrusive, unlike some Christians. Maybe Traci feels she doesn’t have “the right parts” Because she hasn’t had the chance to be introduced. I can go on and on about how great my friend Beth is, but until you meet her, you just couldn’t “get it”.
  Is this adventure simply exploratory or do you have some other goal? I think you both will grow and learn about yourselves in the midst of this and that’s always fun.

• Comment by: Beth

  12 01/8/08 6:25 AM | Comment Link |

  Really true about “falling in love with Jesus,” in my experience. You can’t make anyone fall in love. I believe the Spirit readies our hearts and gives us ears to hear and eyes to see. And of course if we seek He promises we’ll find. He’s not a pest.

  Say more about what you mean by “the chance to be introduced.”

  Goals. Hm. That’s a whole other post. I promise we’ll get to that.

  And excellent red light district comparison, BTW. Hilarious!

• Comment by: Helen

  13 01/8/08 6:35 AM | Comment Link |

  Claudia, thanks for your comment. Women’s ministry meetings scare a lot of Christians, let along people who aren’t Christians, so I’m not too worried about them ‘getting Traci’ as in, persuading her over to the dark side. :)

  On the other hand, part of being rational is giving people a fair hearing so presumably it’s possible, at least in theory, that Traci might hear something that changes her mind about being an atheist.

  And from a Christian point of view, there’s the possibility of her experiencing something supernatural that could change her mind and convince her God does exist after all.

  What I hope for Traci is, this will be an interesting learning experience which helps her feel more comfortable around groups of Christians in future. And helps her get to know Beth better.

  What I hope for Beth is that being with someone who isn’t a Christian, and seeing and hearing Traci’s reactions, will open her eyes to just how alienating Christians can be sometimes. To all the barriers they put in the way of connecting with people outside the faith, even though they claim they very much want to do that. I expect Beth (since she’s smart and thoughtful and compassionate) already is aware of some of these things but when you take your friend into a situation and see people do and say embarrassing things to your friend, it drives the point home in a new way (or so I found, when my atheist husband came to church with me).

• Comment by: Helen

  14 01/8/08 6:43 AM | Comment Link |

  Lisa wrote:
  

  “Falling in love with Jesus” is a whole different ball game. My experience has been that Jesus reveals himself when I least expect him. He’s subtle and unobtrusive, unlike some Christians.

  It will be interesting to read whether Beth thinks the Christians Traci encounters at these meetings are or aren’t like Jesus. (If Beth chooses to comment on that)

  Maybe Traci feels she doesn’t have “the right parts” Because she hasn’t had the chance to be introduced.

  Maybe…but what does ‘being introduced to Jesus’ even mean? I doubt Traci knows. I’m not sure I do. Do you mean, introduced by reading about Jesus in the Bible and finding out what it says about him? Or do you mean something else?

  I’m guessing that Traci will have a lot of questions about the phrases and words Christians use and so Beth will in part be acting as an interpreter. Since Christians do seem to like ‘insider’ language.

• Comment by: Beth

  15 01/8/08 6:52 AM | Comment Link |

  Jim, Matt: To what extent should I serve as an interpreter?

• Comment by: Kristin

  16 01/8/08 7:50 AM | Comment Link |

  Beth, I really love that you asked that question, and I think that what you said about Jesus revealing himself is such a beautiful, pure thing to say. Interpretation is a *very* sticky area, something that I personally object to (I won’t digress with a dissertation on the reasons!) — I really appreciate your sensitivity to the matter and carefulness about how to proceed.

  All that said, something I hear loud and clear, both in the comments posted above and in the Christian community (which I was deeply embedded in, in various denominations, for 23 years), is that people fall in two camps when it comes to faith: “believers” (Christians) and “non-believers” (”non-Christians”). This is an idea I’d really, really love to see some commentary on as you walk this journey together, Traci and Beth — I think it’s certainly a very human thing to do, the limiting to two camps, and it’s easy to do if you read the Bible with no information on historical context, taking all the words at face value. Per my experience, the whole matter of *how* to read the Bible isn’t a cut-and-dried issue in Christian churches, so I would really, really love to hear about your observations in that regard as you also consider women’s ministries. For several years I was very, very involved in women’s ministries in a number of different churches, different Christian traditions, and I always found fascinating the resolve with which the different groups of women held fast to their understandings of what the *right* way to read, interpret, and implement the Bible’s teachings is. As women, I think it tends to be easier to relate to the Bible, to Jesus, and to the Church more on an emotional/psychological level than on an intellectual one as well, and I’m very interested in your findings as you both explore.

  Kudos to the both of you — these are very deep waters you’re embarking out into, and they’ll take some deep consideration and care in approaching them — what a beautiful thing, that the two of you, from very different perspectives, are teaming up to start up a dialogue. And the dialogue is what I’m truly looking forward to seeing — when it comes to matters of faith, it’s so easy to go into dialogues with pre-formed ideas that we aren’t willing to put out on the table for discussion, with the knowledge that they may indeed change. It’s a very scary thing because our faiths are so personal, but I applaud you for putting your thoughts out for discussion and making yourselves vulnerable in this regard.

  Blessings to you on this leg of the journey and always,
  Kristin

• Comment by: Helen

  17 01/8/08 10:32 AM | Comment Link |

  Beth, maybe ‘interpreter’ was not a good word to use.

  I know you didn’t ask me, but I don’t think you need to do anything tonight except be Traci’s friend.

• Comment by: Lisa

  18 01/8/08 11:00 AM | Comment Link |

  I can completely relate to Traci’s need for Vodka during this upcoming event. That made me laugh out loud. I think that is literally the only way I’d get my husband into church. Also could relate to the analogy about football. I also have no interest in that, but am all about the party, so I figure out what can I enjoy about it, to be connected to the group. You may find other ppl that are more about wanting to belong–be connected with a group. They consider this a healthy group to be involved with, or this is all they’re familiar with, or they’ve heard Christians are supposed to be safe and accepting or whatever. Or you might discover other atheist spies. hehe
  I admire that you’re exploring at all. I won’t even go to an aerobics class for fear of looking silly and not knowing what I’m doing. I’ll do it on my own, but that whole group dynamic without alcohol is intimidating.
  I think most people want to belong to something, but we’re all scared, or at least a lot of us are scared, and just trying to figure things out as we go along. Just as a little encouragement Traci…most things I’ve dreaded in my life, end up turning out pretty good.
  As far as my previous comment about Traci not having opportunity to be introduced to Jesus. I’m not sure I even know what I meant by that. I was just “supposing.”
  I’ll have to think about it more and get back to you later.

• Comment by: Helen

  19 01/8/08 2:29 PM | Comment Link |

  Thanks Lisa. I agree that Traci is very brave to do this!

• Comment by: Missy Welsch

  20 01/8/08 5:26 PM | Comment Link |

  Re: Vodka on church property

  My advice: GO ANGLICAN! I don’t think we ever gathered without a stiff snort. Gosh, I miss those days.

• Comment by: Jim Henderson

  21 01/8/08 7:36 PM | Comment Link |

  Jim, Matt: To what extent should I serve as an interpreter?

  During the meeting - almost none
  During the debrief minimal
  During the wine - as much as you like

• Comment by: Beth

  22 01/8/08 7:59 PM | Comment Link |

  Jim: Same for the beer?

  We hesitated, in fact we put the kibosh on any discussion during the ride home and the wine. But I listened to her debrief with her husband and picked up some fascinating insights into Traci’s spiritual bent.

  BTW, “soul” was the buzz word of the evening’s workshop.

  And guess what - we came home to the notification that tomorrow is Guest Day at BSF! This week is the jackpot.

  Helen: Thank you for your helpful thoughts. Just being Traci’s friend is the most useful bit of advice. I know what you meant by “interpretor.” Interpreting the language Christians use, not interpreting meaning of Scripture etc. Just the lingo.

• Comment by: Beth

  23 01/8/08 8:14 PM | Comment Link |

  Claudia - No worries.

  And this evening after our first event, I borrowed Traci’s copy of “Why I’m Not A Christian” by your man Bertrand. I figured fair’s fair.

• Comment by: Helen

  24 01/9/08 6:04 AM | Comment Link |

  Beth, I like the decision you made with Traci not to rush into talking about the experience.

  After you posted your question I realized it’s important to be there with Traci, yet give her space to experience the meetings in her way. And I wondered if ‘interpreter’ inadvertently sent a wrong message that I thought you should be giving Traci a running commentary :-) Anyway the two of you seem to be doing a wonderful job of figuring this out as you go along. It doesn’t seem like you need any advice! But I expect support and encouragement is always welcome.

• Comment by: Kristin DeMint

  25 01/9/08 11:37 AM | Comment Link |

  (this comment has been copied here from Another Jim and Casperesque Adventure by Helen)

  My understanding was that underneath the surface, this whole project of sorts was more geared toward the question of whether the women’s groups would be welcoming enough and “Christ-like” enough (quotes used to signify the varying interpretations of what it means to be Christ-like) to open up Traci’s mind and bring her into the fold, with the underlying hope and motive (I mention that for the sake of being honest) that she would “get to know Jesus” upon learning about Christianity’s teachings in a loving and nonthreatening way.

  After reading several of the comments on Another Jim and Casperesque Adventure, though, it seems that we have two unrelated goals:

  1) Tracy will learn firsthand about this community (i.e., Christianity, via women’s groups) and will provide an objective commentary on what she observes, more from a research perspective on the Christian religion, and

  2) Beth will be looking at the women’s groups to see how they respond to an “outsider” — she’ll then provide an objective commentary that will primarily serve to identify for those participating in Christian women’s groups just how welcoming and unintimidating they truly are.

  So Traci’s aim, from my understanding, is to garner personal knowledge, and Beth’s is to garner knowledge that she can share and take back to the Christian community in efforts to foster discussion, with the aim of becoming more “Christ-like” in terms of evangelism.

  Traci and Beth, is my understanding correct? Just want to make sure I’m on the right page so any comments I have are correctly informed re: your purpose.

  Thanks in advance for the insight!

• Comment by: Micah

  26 01/9/08 12:30 PM | Comment Link |

  This is a great question from Kristen. Judging from the previous comments and discussion on being introduced to faith, it would seem Traci is experiencing fundamental ideas about Christianity. This is a mistake, I think, since any event will inherently not be able to represent well the two thousand year history of Christianity and all of its many aspects.

  This sounds more like a detailed study of a small, but very interesting, piece of Christianity, women’s ministries. So sending Traci Bertrand Russell as an antidote or expecting her to get an accurate picture of Christian faith may be a little out of scope.

• Comment by: Traci

  27 01/9/08 12:50 PM | Comment Link |

  Aw, heck. I’m not expecting to learn about the history of Christianity from women’s ministries. That’s like trying to absorb the history of coffee by buying a frappuccino.
  I’m doing this for mostly selfish purposes that aren’t entirely intellectual:
  I don’t get it. I don’t get why people are drawn to Christianity or to God in general. I’m very interested in understanding what people get from the whole thing. Not in bullshit panacea terms but, really — what does faith do that makes it so tempting, so comforting, so widespread. And I’m particularly interested in the notion of worship/study pursuits in a sex-specific forum. I mean: Why do that at all?
  Beth can talk in much greater detail about how interesting the dynamics are when you get a roomful of Christian ladies together in that context. My toes aren’t even wet yet.

• Comment by: Kristin

  28 01/9/08 1:13 PM | Comment Link |

  Traci, that’s exactly what I meant to say about my understanding of what you’re seeking — I just didn’t want to name specifics because I didn’t want to put words in your mouth.

  Clearly, you can’t understand a religion simply by surrounding yourself and making small talk with groups of the religion’s adherents, esp. those of one gender and in one select region of the country and world. And even the most educated scholars can’t fully understand history, IMHO — to fully and truly understand it in the purest sense, you’d have to live it, all of it. But you can ask questions and make observations about each community that you spend time with — not about the Christian community as a whole per se, because generalizing is a very dangerous thing to do — but it does seem to me that Christianity in America — and in this case, the select region of Indianapolis, has some common underlying currents. And it seems to me that that is what Traci is seeking, as she has so succinctly stated.

  So Traci, please do tell us when you’re good and ready — what sorts of thoughts crossed your mind last night during and after the fellowship/Bible study? And did any new questions spring up?
  It may be very premature to make any sort of comments on your observations just yet, but I am curious to see the progression of your thoughts throught this process…. Look forward to hearing about your experience!

  Much love

• Comment by: Claudia

  29 01/9/08 1:31 PM | Comment Link |

  Aw, and here I was thinking you’d be able to list all attendees at the Council of Nicea by the time this was over… ;)

• Comment by: Beth

  30 01/9/08 1:46 PM | Comment Link |

  Oh, she will, Claudia, she will. I’m giving her my copy of “Church History in Plain Language,” which is an unexpectedly entertaining read by a former professor of mine.

• Comment by: Kristin

  31 01/9/08 1:52 PM | Comment Link |

  How’s about Christianity For Dummies and Historical Jesus For Dummies? I kid you not, those books exist.

• Comment by: Lisa

  32 01/9/08 3:11 PM | Comment Link |

  Traci, what inspired you to do this to begin with? I’m assuming it’s something you’ve been curious about and an opportunity presented itself. I was thinking about it earlier today when I heard someone’s TV on in another office and Montel had Sylvia Brown, the psychic on–who I think is full of crap. Every time I hear something about someone’s psychic experiences I just roll my eyes, and think how foolish these ppl are to buy into any of it, then started wondering if you’ve had similar thoughts about Christianity. Then started wondering how each person ends up on the life path they’re on with their own little set of beliefs, and how so many of us are yearning for something bigger than “I”. I don’t know if you’ve had any sort of yearnings for anything other than what you have. I’m just curious, what made you curious to begin with.

• Comment by: Missy Welsch

  33 01/9/08 4:08 PM | Comment Link |

  I guess I see our role as witnesses to this journey, we are observers of this process, rather than assessing what each writer is experiencing. It’s so like the Christian to be tempted to get inside people’s heads/hearts/souls as they go through a process, any process. (grief, growth, marital trouble, child-rearing, etc…)It’s so nice to be able to just sit back and relax as we enjoy Beth’s and Traci’s journey, voyeurs that we are. Thank you Traci and Beth for allowing us this pleasure.

• Comment by: Missy Welsch

  34 01/9/08 4:16 PM | Comment Link |

  Lest I forget, (Jim, this is to you) an explanation for the “terrible skeptic/recovering pastor’s wife”… twenty-two years as the wife of a pastor was great for the most part. It’s just the hangover one suffers when there’s a divorce, well, let’s just say I switched denominations.

• Comment by: Matt Casper

  35 01/9/08 5:19 PM | Comment Link |

  TRACI: on being reduced to one word, “atheist.”

  When I find myself talking to believers and they focus on me as an atheist (only because their religious worldview forces them to) I always say, “I’m Matt. I’m a dad, a guitar player, an atheist, a decent driver, a trusted friend, a good guy to party with, and a Simpsons fan.”

  We are all of us far too interesting to be distilled into one word (except maybe the fundamentalists, who prefer being distilled into one word… what that word is depends on your disposition).

  Enjoy your visits! I certainly enjoyed mine! Maybe I’ll even make some more…

• Comment by: Matt Casper

  36 01/9/08 5:31 PM | Comment Link |

  TRACI: I, too, began my church visits thinking I’d learn more about the magic of faith, but I didn’t, really. Learned about the power of community, for sure.

  And I learned that if everyone in America who calls themselves a Christian actually did what Jesus told them to do, our problems would be over… no poverty, no healthcare crisis, no income disparity, no pollution, no greed, no murder, no hate, no killing, no war.

  And I actually met a few who did and do exactly what Jesus told them to do. And it’s the honest lives of sacrifice they lead that give me hope, which is a goood thing. Jason Evans is one of them. We had a conversation that went something like this:

  ME: Do you think what I’m doing with this book is related to what you do?
  JASON: Not really… I respect what you do, but it’s not what I’m trying to do.
  ME: What is it you respect?
  JASON: You are calling Christians out on their inability to love.
  ME: Ahhhh… and you’re simply loving.
  JASON: Trying to, anyway.

  Humble, graceful, real followers of Jesus are out there. I hope you get to meet a few, too. May not lead you to believe in God, per se, but it may make you feel better about the shape of the world.

• Comment by: Trudy Long

  37 01/9/08 8:42 PM | Comment Link |

  Beth what an awesome journey you two are going on. I love the banter so far. I really look forward to hearing your feedback. Thanks for keeping in the loop.

• Comment by: Jim Henderson

  38 01/9/08 10:46 PM | Comment Link |

  It’s just the hangover one suffers when there’s a divorce, well, let’s just say I switched denominations

  Thanks

  I guess denominations are like bad marriages sometimes

• Comment by: Traci

  39 01/10/08 3:47 AM | Comment Link |

  Lisa: No yearnings. Not as an adult, anyway, but I did try really hard to be a believer before I discovered that it was okay not to be. (I was 18 then and staying up nights to read Ayn Rand.)
  I’ve kicked around other ideas for getting into churches to challenge any of my own eye-rolling impulses and just try to “get it.” So when Beth came to me with a cogent plan, I nodded my head, “Yes, yes, yes.”
  I’m really jazzed up about it. The experience is fascinating already.

• Comment by: Kristin

  40 01/10/08 8:28 AM | Comment Link |

  How I love all this dialogue! I’m with you, Missy, and it seems we’re all on the same page — this is a really cool opportunity to observe. I was born and raised in the Christian church, but I’ve since gone a different way for various reasons, mostly philosophically based — I’m very curious to see what Traci’s take is on the culture having never really been a deeply embedded part of it. My transformation happened when I stepped outside the church mentally and started observing, on various levels — but I had the Christian worldview embedded in me and decades of experience as a part of that community, which I’m sure affected my understanding about the religion and how/why I think people tend to adhere to it. And of course, it’s never fair to make judgments on others’ motives, but I’m very curious to hear about Traci’s observations of what actually shakes down.

  One other quick thought that I’d like to put on the table — it may seem like semantics, really, but I think the language we use is vitally important, and we as humans often aren’t careful enough and thoughtful enough with the words we choose: the terminology referring to “believers” and “non-believers” just reeeeeaaaally irks me, and I think it feeds the black-and-white notion that people fall in one of two camps. I understand that Christianity holds to that tenet, but outside the framework of belief, it simply isn’t true — for example, people of other faiths are most definitely believers; they just don’t believe that Christian theology is true. It seems that Traci is using “believer” in the most general sense, but I don’t get that impression from others throughout this string — I think I’m sensing a disconnect in the language, but maybe I’m wrong?

  My apologies if I’m being a pain — I’m really not trying to be! I’m just so grateful to the people who remind me to always be careful with the words I choose, and I think it’s worth putting out there for discussion as we watch Traci and Beth embark on this journey.

• Comment by: Kristin

  41 01/10/08 8:40 AM | Comment Link |

  MATT: Thanks for your commentary on the one-word descriptor. I’ve experienced another version, which is equally perplexing. Mine is “not a Christian,” so if people I once knew in the Christian church ask about my beliefs, no matter what I tell them, their response is “so you’re not a Christian?”. It’s almost humorous to me, really. My response: “Nope. But I’m something else. And lots of something elses.”

• Comment by: Beth

  42 01/10/08 10:37 AM | Comment Link |

  Kristin - How do you feel about “Christ follower,” the latest craze in Christian labeling?

• Comment by: Kristin

  43 01/10/08 11:06 AM | Comment Link |

  Hi Beth - can you clarify what you mean by “how do I feel about” it? As in, for the purposes of this discussion, or are you wanting to have a dialogue about the label itself re: whether or not it truly is an accurate word choice? (I’m not familiar with it being the latest craze — are you saying it’s a craze within the Christian community, or outside that community, to label Christians?)

• Comment by: Beth

  44 01/10/08 9:08 PM | Comment Link |

  Hi Kristin. I no longer gravitate toward these people, personally, who tend to reduce others to Christian/not Christian. I was born into that tribe and spent the early part of my life there, so I can feel your pain and have a pretty good idea of what you’re talking about. When I jumped out of the fold in visible, dramatic ways, I experienced severe whiplash and left. In fact, I pointed my car west and drove over 1200 miles to escape.

  Over time, and after some distance from that tradition, I experienced Jesus wooing my heart back with grace and unconditional love and found a safe and loving Christian faith community where I was free to be in whatever state of doubt or belief. (Please excuse the sappy language. I’m much more reserved in person.)

  Re: Christ Follower. Unforunately, names and labels can be useful and convenient. But they’re not necessarily mean spirited or judgemental. I guess it depends on who’s using them and how they’re applied.

  These days, the church types with whom I hang identify themselves as “Christ followers,” less and less as “Christian” or “Believer.” It’s a trend that shifts the focus from “being” identified with a belief system to “doing” as the One they follow. For the most part these people don’t find value in categorizing others. Back in my old Christian/non-Christian labeling days I would have considered these Christ follower types (and myself) liberal (gasp!) and bordering on heretical. The Christian faith adherents with whom I most closely associate (and trust) now - in church, neighborhood, work etc. are not so much focussed on what others are or aren’t, what they’re called or not called but more on responding to God through action rather than doctrinal pursuits and judging others. They do study the Bible, practice other spiritual disciplines (prayer, solitude, etc.), to grow closer to God, and they earnestly share their faith through acts of love and giving and sometimes words — in the name of Christ. But they, and I hope I, are characterized primarily by grace and unconditional acceptance.

  As I’m sure you know, vast variety exists within Christendom and the world in general, regardless of faith - running the gamut on tolerance offered to others. Anyway.

  How confusing was THAT?!

• Comment by: Helen

  45 01/11/08 5:28 AM | Comment Link |

  Beth, I like it when Christians emphasize doing. I have to say that the first person who comes to my mind as using ‘Christ-follower’ seemed like a nice guy but he was very conservative and you were Not a Christ-Follower unless you had Accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior. So to me it doesn’t necessarily signify flexibility about the in/out dichotomy.

  Also, the word Christ - to me it’s very much insider language. I think ‘follower of Jesus’ is simpler and clearer. To even get to ‘Christ’ that implies accepting a belief package - or so it seems to me. It needs explaining: who is the Anointed One (literal translation of Christ) - why is that Jesus and why was he called that?

  I’ve had a number of tiresome conversations with people who have said “You can’t be follower of Jesus unless you believe certain things about Jesus”. I disagree - I don’t see why not - if you like to do things he did then you are a follower, so it seems to me. End of story.

  However, I’m not sure you can be a Christ-follower without believing certain things about Jesus because to use that word you need to believe Jesus is the Anointed One, the Christ.

  I don’t know how far discussing labels will get us, Kristin, because people who think we are ‘outsiders’ not ‘insiders’ are unlikely to change their minds about us. We can’t control what they think - to me the answer is to be comfortable in ourselves with the path we choose in life, to own responsibility for that choice, and to trust that should we ever find ourselves face to face with a God and accountable to him, if he is good (as we have been told) then his assessment of us will be at worst, make sense to us as fair and just, and at best he will be gracious beyond anything our detractors imagined. He will not be the rigid legalist some Christians present him as, sending people to hell unless they signed on the dotted line with the right color ink (red of course).

  He will be the person who was watching when we made tiny choices to be kind to others that we don’t even remember. Yet who somehow seems to have forgotten things we felt guilty about our whole lives

  If there IS a (good) God then I think people who have portrayed God as mean or arrogant or vindictive or short-tempered or rigidly legalistic or an egomaniac will have a lot to answer for. (But not as much as if he really IS that way) (And not as much as people who try to take COFFEE into church sanctuaries :))

• Comment by: Beth

  46 01/11/08 6:35 AM | Comment Link |

  Interesting points, Helen.

  These labels are wearing me out! For me they’re just a convenience issue.

  Also, my husband would not call himself a Christ follower, but he does a much better job of following Jesus than I, who would call myself a Christ follower. But he wouldn’t like “Jesus follower” either. He wouldn’t mind “just a good guy,” though.

  I would imagine plenty of “Christians” would think I’m not a very good Christ follower if I don’t have a Christ following husband. I don’t care what they think.

  And I’ll work on my liquid in church issues.

• Comment by: Helen

  47 01/11/08 7:03 AM | Comment Link |

  Beth - I agree about labels. I don’t think redefining them or changing them helps if people continue to have a ‘label’ mentality i.e. they look for a quick easy way to categorize others, instead of, like Matt and Kristin have mentioned, being interested in getting to know people in all their fascinating complex uniqueness.

  If you don’t mind me asking, does your husband go to church with you?

  I’ve been married to an atheist for twenty years whose ethical standards are higher than those of many Christians I’ve encountered. So much for labels.

• Comment by: Kristin

  48 01/11/08 7:57 AM | Comment Link |

  Beth and Helen:

  Your commentary is rich and insightful, and I can tell that you are both beautiful, open people — thank you. And Helen, I wholeheartedly agree about the “Jesus” versus “Christ” nuances — thank you for pointing that out. (And I’m also with you both — talking about the labels is wearing me out, too! I was just hoping to make a quick point — woops. Wrong-o.)

  My goal certainly wasn’t to change others’ thinking, though it may have come across that way — I’m very much in the “live and let live” camp, but I do encourage ongoing dialogue. So my aim was just to say “hey, this is worth considering” — I think so often, the Christian church pulls its members into the legalese, and those members are caught unaware — in my experience, organized religion has been more about talking and doing rather than just sitting back and observing, meditating, thinking before we speak.

  I just know this whole project is likely to be a sticky one, so some extra thought/meditation on all our parts — mine included — will likely foster a more productive dialogue and learning experience. Just my two cents! :)

  And now: I’m off to get my morning cup of joe. Probably should’ve done that before writing this!

• Comment by: Helen

  49 01/12/08 3:10 PM | Comment Link |

  Thanks Kristin. I am very much in favor of dialog. Although I try to stay away from conversations that get too theoretical/debate-y. I prefer ones where it seems like people are getting to know each other and learning something useful/meaningful/helpful.

• Comment by: Kristin

  50 01/14/08 8:25 AM | Comment Link |

  Hi Helen (et. al):

  Quick disclaimer that I’m not out here to debate, I swear :) (I get the sense that you may feel like I’m trying to steer the discussion that way, but maybe I’m wrong). To me, part of getting to know each other well is to understand specifically where each person (in this case, Beth and Traci) is coming from, and I feel a strong personal sense of responsibility for being as clear, open, and accurate as possible, esp. when my very dear friends, to whom this topic is completely foreign, are involved. I personally seek more depth in conversations, theologically speaking — I find a lot of growth and meaning in challenging beliefs and being challenged. (Maybe I’ve inserted that discussion into the wrong blog, though! Which is why I wanted to understand Beth’s and Traci’s intent with the project.) I have minimal formal education in Christian theology and politics, so most of what I’ve learned is through experience, observation, and personal study (so no scholarly tit-for-tat debates here!). :)

  Kind regards to you, always.

• Comment by: Helen

  51 01/14/08 12:54 PM | Comment Link |

  Well…I would say it’s up to Beth and Traci to decide what to share here about their beliefs/non-beliefs and intent as they write about their experiences at Christian women’s ministry meetings.

  I don’t want them to feel any obligation to carry out this writing project in any particular way except the way they want to.

  Speaking for myself I like reading stories about people’s experiences. I’m somewhat curious about their beliefs/nonbeliefs but I’m happy to read the stories not knowing all those particulars.

• Comment by: pam sardar

  52 01/20/08 7:23 PM | Comment Link |

  He will be the person who was watching when we made tiny choices to be kind to others that we don’t even remember. Yet who somehow seems to have forgotten things we’ve felt guilty about our whole lives.

  Helen: It’s Pam from Delhi writing because I happen to be in Indiana and have time to write. I love your comments about who Jesus is…makes him so much more approachable. I doubt there are many of us out here who don’t look for the qualities of kindness and grace and forgiveness…reasons I am so drawn to Jesus.

  I have been absent from these blogs for about a year raising 4 kids and trying to help my husband eradicate caste. Full time work.

  Anyway, Beth and Traci…Grace is my church of choice when I am in town and will be looking forward to meeting you Friday night. I am married to an Indian, social/spiritual activist and follower of Jesus (can I say that?) His name is Sunil and you can check out our website (truthseekersinternational.org)I am a mom, teacher, writer and spend most of my time in New Delhi, India. Currently, I am in Indiana waiting to return to my family as I have been deported (temporarily I hope)related to our work.

• Comment by: Helen

  53 01/21/08 2:59 PM | Comment Link |

  Hi Pam! Wow, you get to meet Beth and Traci on Friday? I’m jealous :)

• Comment by: pam sardar

  54 01/21/08 4:34 PM | Comment Link |

  Hey Helen,
  I’m at church minding my own business and all of a sudden this little red tshirt pops up on the screen but it doens’t say Jim and Casper, it says Beth and Traci! I can’t believe I’m here for this. Can’t think of a better way to spend a Friday night! :)

• Comment by: Beth Bates

  55 01/21/08 5:47 PM | Comment Link |

  Pam from Delhi!

  I asked Jim H. recently for more information about his interest in eliminating the caste system in India. (Seriously. Could you have found a more challenging pursuit? Like maybe finding sea creatures on Mercury?) I hope you come introduce yourself Friday evening after the meeting - if there’s anything left of us!

• Comment by: Helen

  56 01/21/08 7:13 PM | Comment Link |

  Pam, that must have been a fun surprise!

  I’m so glad you heard about the meeting and can go - even though evidently it wasn’t your choice to be in Indiana right now.

• Comment by: pam sardar

  57 01/25/08 1:49 PM | Comment Link |

  Beth,
  I can’t wait to meet you (and Traci)tonight. Yes, I’d guess challenging the caste system is a pretty interesting life style choice. I talked to Jim yesterday, and he said, “Be sure to meet Beth”. So here I come.
  Helen,
  Yes, it is a piece of light in a rather dark season for our family. Not easy to be separated by force. Just heard today though that it looks good with the gov’t. and I should be home by the 10th Feb

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