Joel is unimpressed with Jim and Casper
Not Joel Osteen but Joel Klampert, music director, worship leader, marketing and design guy for St. Michael’s Charismatic Episcopal Church in Newport, RI.
Joel gives Jim and Casper go to Church just 2 stars out of 5. Here are his comments about the book
In Jim and Casper Go to church we see a Christian retired pastor and an athiest go from church to church talking about their opinions on it. This book has been getting rave reviews so I bet most of you are surprised Ive got 2 stars on it. As a matter of fact Brent sent me a message asking why. My issues with the book… First off this was suppose to be a completely unbiased approach to rating the churches and it wasn’t. The Christian waled in with his matter of fact beliefs on everything and was not very open to anything that didnt fit into his scope. The athiest wasn’t and unchurched one. He went to one churhc and said that it felt like home because he grew up in a church like that. Basically through the whole book you realize they have it in their heads what church should be like and they are weighing everything against that. Basically it came down to a few things for them. Outreach was key almost to the point that they didnt even think you needed “Church†you just needed a church body. I didn’t agree with most of the theology in the book and a few things took me aback. Casper mentions that the churches sing about the blood too much…and it is kinda freaky. Then Jim ends up agreeing with him. I think he needs to read dangerous act of worship. I was floored by this..we sing about the blood because that is what our faith is all about…We cant leave that out just to make people feel comfortable. Im not going to go into the rest of the book…I think you should read it, but understand it may tick you off.
Joel’s assumption the book was unbiased surprised me. I think someone must have misinformed him about the book because I’ve never heard Jim or Casper claim to be unbiased.
Comment by: Curtis Cecil
1 10/28/07 1:35 PM | Comment Link |I do not agree with most of what is stated above, but the raters predisposed ideas do come through.
Althought the book never claims to be un-opinionated.
Casper can be sumed up in the view of: Doing trumps reading of the word. By this I mean he looked more in a call to action for changing the world (a very real call of Christ) over even a close understanding of scripture or doctrine.
Both didn’t care for the large churches and the view that no one can connect comes through. All though I do agree, coming from Northridge Church in Plymouth, MI (one of the fastest growing in America). Yet if you try you can connect.
So finally: Did Casper and Jim write this expecting you to agree with all of it? No. Just to learn how an outsider sees your church without any preknowlege.
It is biased but it is a snapshot picture that needs to be listened to.
Comment by: Klampert
2 10/28/07 8:06 PM | Comment Link |Hey just found this site…I’m Joel…of course.
First off I do think this book should be read because it shows some thoughts as to what people are thinking. Did I expect something else from it? yes. Was i surprised the the Athiest? not really other than him already having a church backgrund. What took me aback was Jims perspectives. They baffled me. I know there is this whole thought of a church without walls these days and Barna is preaching it, but I think that some of this isn’t biblical. One of my top fav. books these days is dangerous act of worship. It’s in line with my thoughts here.I think we need to be sensitive to others thoughts, but I think we need to be careful watering down the faith for the sake of peoples feelings.
They were dead on about the church needing to walk what they talk and outreach and take care of the poor and the needy…dead on, but In my opinion way off on things like singing the word blood too much. Just one example, but it proves my point.
FOr me it comes down to Micah 6:8 we need to be just and fight for it in our communities , we need to have mercy, and we need to have love. To many are jaded by the church because of our judgmental veiws and additudes. Jim and casper were right on that one. Get your church out its doors and make a change in the lives of others…thats what counts.
As far as connecting in a mega church. You cant in a service..an they arent designed for that…Wile Im not a fan of them I do know that you connect within the small groups of the church.
Thanks guys…and keep in mind, just because I dont agree with some of the book doesnt mean I dont think it should be read. I think it should.
Comment by: Helen
3 10/28/07 9:07 PM | Comment Link |Thanks for your comment, Cecil. I’ve belonged to large churches and it was my experience too that you could connect if you tried. But does it have to be that way? What if new people were welcomed rather than having to make the effort themselves?
Joel thanks for stopping by to respond. Why did you expect Casper to be unchurched? By the way, the ebay atheist (Hemant) WAS completely unchurched before Jim won the ebay auction and asked him to review ten churches. Perhaps you are getting him and Casper confused. You can read Hemant’s reviews on our ebay atheist blog here
I think not holding people accountable for how they’re following Jesus is being too sensitive to their feelings. We shouldn’t let people feel good just because they showed up at church and sang about the blood. I agree with Casper about the blood; I don’t think Christians really get what they are singing when they do that anyway. What use is singing about the blood if we are not actively involved opposing injustice and inequity in the world which is leading to more unnecessary death every day? Jesus said “Whatever you did to the least of these you did it to me…” Maybe he’d rather have us out preventing more bloodshed as best we can rather than singing songs about his blood.
I know your focus is on worship - but wouldn’t the best way for Christians to show what Jesus is worth be to be out following his example - being his disciples - instead of huddled in church singing? If Christians don’t follow Jesus then what that means is, they don’t think he’s worth much, no matter how many ‘worship songs’ they sing.
That’s my biased opinion, anyway!
Comment by: Klampert
4 10/29/07 9:56 AM | Comment Link |Helen: first off its been great hearing yours, jims and caspers thoughts and heart on everything. Also it has been great reading this site to get more insight into the real core of the book..
continued conversation here: http://cecworship.wordpress.com/2007/10/25/hmmreviews-updates-faith/#comment-8584
Comment by: tom carter
5 11/24/07 10:41 PM | Comment Link |Unbiased?? A tomato is unbiased. All people have predisposed opinions even when the say they do not. I think Jim and Casper gave good backgrounds on themselves in the foreword so that their individual biases could be reflected. bias is not the problem, belief in an unbiased opinion is the problem.
Comment by: Randy
6 12/9/07 6:05 PM | Comment Link |Uh, Tom…the bias of a tomato is directly conditional upon whether one can determine if it is a fruit or a vegetable. As everyone knows, vegetables are biased (and can cause bloating), while fruits are not (Galatians 5, I believe).
Just something to ponder…
Comment by: klampert
7 12/13/07 12:06 PM | Comment Link |Tom: very intersting and I agree with some of it. I guess i expected a lot less of the bais opinion. My issues came down to not that it was bias but that they walked in with what the expected church to be and didn’t go in trying to look at something different.
Randy: ha!