In defense of rich people who are otherly
Kewl posted this comment in a discussion on one of our church ratings. It’s a great reminder not to assume people are selfish (un-otherly) just because we see they have more material possessions than we do.
Abraham received,
- a promise - that God would make his seed as abundant as the stars of the sky and the grains of sand on the seashore
- a blessing - I will bless you with abundant blessing
Jesus is the ultimate blessing. However, Paul said that the blessing given to Abraham came upon the church (Gal. 3:14).
But God gave Abraham a blessing in his lifetime. It was material abundance.
Most of the Old Testament figures were highly prosperous. The way I see it, God gave them blessing to be a blessing.
When Jesus talked about in Matt. 24 (25?) about feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the prisons, etc., I see this as being possible through prosperity. You certainly can’t feed anyone else if you can’t feed yourself.
Granted that a lot of prosperity motivations are not fueled by the desire to help those who are in need. That’s not my problem. There’s nothing I can do about if I did take it on as my problem.
Nonetheless, I see that prosperity is for that very reason. I’ve personally used it for that very reason.
I live in a moderate sized home in a good neighborhood. I drive a nice car (but older) car. But it really wouldn’t matter if I lived in Beverly Hills. If I had the means to feed the poor and help others in need (AND DID IT), then what difference does it make where I live or what I have personally?
I see a lot of people begrudging someone who is prosperous out of jealousy. I’ve also seen a lot of people who don’t help others criticize someone else for having money or wealth, yet they themselves don’t have a clue as to what the wealthy person does with their money.
I’ve heard a thousand or more times, ‘Why don’t they sell that and give it to the poor.’ Well, the truth is, they could be giving hundreds of thousands of dollars to the poor without announcing to anyone. Jesus said to let your giving be done in secret.
I will say this. I know a lot of people who have a lot of financial resources who fund a lot of programs for the poor. In fact, most of these people are involved in doing such things.
And the fact is, they are going to continue to make a lot of money and continue to help a lot of poor people regardless of all the naysayers. I’ve watched them be judged by those who are doing nothing, yet, they still continue to help those in need and still continue to keep it to themselves.
Most of the people I know who do this would find it embarrassing for others to know what they do.
Today, a pastor friend of mine called me. He told me that a minister friend of his gave $1,000,000 towards building AIDS clinics in Africa this past week.
Now the guy who gave the $1,000,000 lives in a very nice ‘estate’. A lot of people know where he lives and he gets a lot of criticism for having such a large home.
However, I can tell you this. Those people who receive the benefit from that $1,000,000 who are dying with AIDS could care less how big of a house he’s living in.
Now, I’m going to convince all of you that I’m a heretic by what I’m going to say next.
“I believe it is wrong NOT to make as much money as you can in order to have the resources to make as many people as you can, live better. I also believe that the ultimate hypocrisy is having a healthy mind and ample opportunity (and if you live in the U.S., you DO have ample opportunity) and not doing anything with it other than criticize others who are doing something with their lives and doing something to help others in need.”
If you live in America and have the enormous opportunities that we have and don’t do all you can to make as much money as possible while helping all the people that you can, then, I personally don’t believe you care one thing about poor people. You can point fingers at preachers, business people or whoever and say, ‘They’ve got too much’. The big question is, ‘What are you doing to help the poor?’
You aren’t helping the poor by presuming that everyone who has money and calls themselves a Christian is in fact a liar and a fake. That doesn’t feed one hungry child. That doesn’t pay one doctor bill for some one in need.
All I’m saying here and trying to bring here is some rationality and common sense. I know what I’m talking about. I’ve given hundreds of thousands of dollars to help those in need. No one reading this (as the lady said earlier) knows who I am. Nor will they ever know who I am.
I have been in places of responsibility with a lot of money. I know what I’ve done and I know why I didn’t parade in a church service. Jealousy, criticism, pure meanness, abounds. Inside and outside of the church.
Money is a tool and a huge responsibility. Most people who have access to a lot of financial resources, know that. Most of them that I know, handle it responsibly and help a lot of people.
My view is a bit different from most other views on here. I realize that. My view is different because my experience has been different. But I do hope that the people here and who are reading this do use some common sense, rationality and integrity.
If you judge others who have a lot of financial resources and who you don’t know what they do with those resources, yet you presume that you know, and you are doing nothing yourself to help others in need, then I would say, check your integrity.
Comment by: Helen
1 09/29/07 6:34 AM | Comment Link |Kewl, thank you for sharing with us. I hope people will think about what you’ve written. To me it’s fascinating how people tend to be quicker to judge some people than others. You’re absolutely right - why should we assume people are selfish just because they have more material possessions than us? And why are we judging them instead of focusing on whatever WE can do to help the poor?
I love to hear from people who have an experience I haven’t had - to me that’s *very valuable*. I so appreciate your taking the time to engage with us even though we have reminded you of the same prejudices you have found elsewhere. We want to learn and do better. Thanks for giving us the opportunity to learn from you.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
2 09/29/07 9:35 AM | Comment Link |Kewl
Thanks for openingly expressing your views. Very helpful and humbling.
While I disagree with your method of interpreting the bible I will be quick to add that I have my own ways of selectively reading the scriptures (as do all Cs).
When Jesus talked about the poor in spirit he was referring to economically, emotionally and spiritually poor. I am good with that.
He was buried in a rich mans tomb (one of those who he presumably referred to with the eye of the needle story)
The lesson I am reminded of from your observations is that we be careful to not “compare our best with their worst”
Thanks for being friendly
Comment by: Matt Casper
3 09/29/07 9:53 AM | Comment Link |Kewl,
I agree with much of what you said, especially the fact that the people being helped by the donations of the wealthy couldn’t care less what kind of car their donors drive…
I also agree that a big question (not “the” big question, IMO) is “what are you doing to help the poor?”
But if you yourself are a follower of Jesus, I gotta tell you that you often sound a bit more like Ayn Rand than Jesus Christ.
I often ask people, “Was Jesus a capitalist?” I tend to doubt it as, by definition, capitalism encourages people to compete, not collaborate. And Jesus was all about collaborating.
Switching gears: A million dollar donation is, of course, impressive. For most of us, more impressive than someone working a couple hours a week (gratis) at a soup kitchen. But why…? Because we value money above all else.
I heard something on my church visits that really resonated which was “giving is not really giving unless it interrupts your lifestyle.”
The person who gave a million bucks may not have been as “interrupted” as, for example, my friend Jason who gives his time.
Instead of focusing making money to the point where he can give a million and still keep his estate, Jason spends his time hands-on helping people… which is more like what Jesus would do?
Finally, say what you will about rich people doing good–and I know some do–but being rich, in itself, is not something Jesus recommended to those that would truly follow him:
“…I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” Matthew 19:24
There’s no need to interpret anything there: it’s pretty black and white.
So far as Old testament folks being rich, sure. But don’t you think the words spoken by God’s only son might override anything in the Old Testament? (There’s some pretty nutty stuff back in there: okaying slavery, etc.)
I often think the story in the bible is one of false starts and do-overs: dinosaurs didn’t work, so God wiped ‘em out. Then, things got out of hand again, so God covered the world in water, another do-over. Then, when he saw how wrongheaded people were being once again, he said, “I guess I gotta send my son down there to straighten them out.”
So, in my opinion, people who believe Jesus was the son of God would do better to follow what he says than anything in the old testament…
My thoughts on a Saturday morning…
Matt
Comment by: Kewl
4 09/29/07 10:47 AM | Comment Link |Jim and Helen,
Thank you so much. I appreciate your kindness and the rationality that you’ve shown.
I’m writing my fourth book now. It’s title will be something to the effect of, ‘If God is Love, Why is Religion so Mean?’
Its refreshing to meet here with sincere, intelligent people (not something that see much).
Again, from the bottom of my heart,
Thank You!
Comment by: benjamin ady
5 09/29/07 2:19 PM | Comment Link |Kewl,
I agree with much of what you have said. Thankyou for bringing your perspective.
I’m wondering have you ever looked at Richard Foster’s Money Sex and Power? He talks about this paradox that we see in Scripture about money. That yes, as you say, on the one hand it looks like money is *good*. Indeed, again as you say, It’s clear that God indicates/fulfills his blessing and approval toward people by making them really wealthy. Lots of examples of this, again as you point out: Abraham, Isaac, the list goes on.
But as Foster points out, it seems to me to be important that we acknowledge the other side of this paradox as well. There is also clearly a dark side to money, wealth, power woven throughout Scripture. Indeed, this is why we see the disciples so puzzled and even shocked when Jesus says
Why were the disciples staggered? From what background are they operating when they say in such shock “Then who has any chance at all?” I would argue that perhaps they were operating from reasoning similar to your own. Based on their own Scriptures, what we now call the Old Testament, it certainly looked to them like wealth was a sign of God’s approval and blessing. So if even the wealthy can’t get in, especially, perhaps, the just wealthy, then who has a chance?
Foster’s writing is quite provocative. The dark side of money is there right through the old testament. We see that the israelites have this overwhelming tendency to only turn towards god and live well, love other people, etc., when they are themselves more connected to the plight of the poor and the abused because they find themselves in that position. When they are wealthy and powerful, they turn away from God.
All of which is to say that it seems arguable to me that it takes a very special kind of person to be able to handle wealth and power. We humans have a tendency to be hurt each other, kill each other, abuse each other. Wealth and power create a platform from which we can do these things more effectively to more people. Which is to say its arguable that for every Bill Gates or Paul Farmer (or pick your powerful, good person), there are 3 Don Rumsfelds, George Bushes, a Saddam Husseins, (or pick your powerful evil person).
It seems perhaps wiser for us, instead of encouraging people to pursue wealth and power as a means to kindness and justice, rather to encourage people to pursue kindness and justice, and as their capacity for these things grow, increased wealth and power will become available to them. And hopefully as we go through the learning process, (both about oursevles and about the world) which pursuit of kindness, peace, justice, compassion will bring about, we will become wiser in such a way that we won’t end up using that wealth and power to wreak destruction. But as numerous examples indicate, this isn’t necessarily going to be the case, and even those who start out seeking power and wealth for the best possible reasons can relatively quickly turn these resources toward evil ends.
I think Jim Wallis touches on some of these questions this recent open letter.
sorry for being so lengthy.
Comment by: Helen
6 09/29/07 2:27 PM | Comment Link |Kewl wrote:
I love the title, Kewl!
I recently wrote something (just an article; not a book) called “How did Christianity become an excuse to be mean?”
It sounds like we are very much on the same page. I’m glad you pointed out it’s just as mean to be unfairly judgmental about ‘rich Christians’ as any of the other forms of meanness which unfortunately seem to pervade Christendom.
Comment by: Helen
7 09/29/07 2:31 PM | Comment Link |btw I found comment #3 in the moderation queue - if anyone’s wondering why they didn’t see it earlier that’s why; it was ‘delayed’.
Comment by: Matt Casper
8 09/29/07 4:09 PM | Comment Link |Will anyone ever answer my question?
Was Jesus a capitalist?
A yes or no would answer quite a bit about what makes a good follower of Jesus…
Comment by: benjamin ady
9 09/29/07 4:33 PM | Comment Link |Matt
the question is a bit difficult to get at, as it requires a bit of anachronism. I mean what does the word “capitalism” mean in the context of first century palestine?. For that matter, what does it mean now? I found this definition “A person who derives a living by investing sums of money in enterprises managed by him or herself or by others.” I´m thinking that Jesus was pretty clearly not not a capitalist by that definition.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
10 09/30/07 8:06 AM | Comment Link |Benjamin gets to the heart of the matter for me. I think this is (hopefully) what Paul refers to with “the LOVE of money is the root of all evil”
So no one can truly say MONEY is the root of all evil but as Benjamin so articulately explains it does serve to reveal our dark side faster than almost anything else (except perhaps sex or a gun)
Comment by: Helen
11 09/30/07 12:47 PM | Comment Link |Matt, I think there are different ways of helping people; what’s wrong with some people helping with time and others with money?
To some people time might not be a big deal to give away; I don’t think it’s always true that time is more of a sacrifice than money.
Jesus and Paul warned against the dangers of being rich but like Jim said, neither of them said money itself was evil.
Jesus also said “don’t judge” and he didn’t place a condition on that like “don’t judge someone unless they are rich, in which case judge away…” :)
Jim’s favorite verse (I think I’ve heard him say it is) could imply Jesus isn’t against capitalism, period, couldn’t it?
“I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.”
Comment by: Matt Casper
12 09/30/07 2:33 PM | Comment Link |I agree there’s different ways to help, and nothing’s wrong with some people helping with time and others with money.
Parsing that favorite verse of Jim’s, and note that Jesus does say “when” not “if,” so people who have acquired great wealth better set up a plan to unload it before they call it a day. Maybe a blank check made out to “cash for poor” to be redeemed after the lights go out.
Everyone has to make their own call on these things. There’s so much open to interpretation and absolutely no hard evidence for what will or won’t please any kind of god.
I only know that if I believed Jesus was actually the son of an omnipotent supernatural god, and he sacrificed his life so that I could have eternal life, then I would not take chances with any implications.
And there’s no implication from the camel verse. No rich people in heaven, period. He even repeats it.
I’m not judging anyone with money. I need money, too. I only see so little in our capitalist society that reflects most of what Jesus was known for, and I think many people seek verses in the bible that will justify their material wants as much as anything else.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
13 10/1/07 4:32 PM | Comment Link |I heard a guy who is giving away 4 Billion from his foundation- He made all his money in those Duty Free Shops in airports- He is into giving while living
Comment by: benjamin ady
14 10/1/07 4:47 PM | Comment Link |Doesn’t percentage come into it somewhere? I mean isn’t that what Jesus was saying when he pointed out the widow who gave two mites. Like if I give 4 Billion, and that represents 20% of my wealth, then a guy gives $10, and that represents 80% of his wealth, he gave more than me?
Hmmmmmmm
I have the feeling that I rather don’t give enough. Then again, I’m not gonna beat myself up over this. Progress not perfection, right?
Comment by: Kewl
15 10/1/07 7:00 PM | Comment Link |This will be an ongoing argument that frankly I don’t want to involve myself. The unconvinced, the convinced, believers and unbelievers won’t ever engage in honest exchange. Scriptural interpretation has become so subjective to opinions, biases, viewpoints, etc., that no evidence of proof will ever suffice. Anyone and everyone considers their opinion to hold the weight of factorial, non-refutable evidence. To even engage in dialog here with no agreed upon ground rules becomes nothing but an attempt at convincing and/or unconvincing arguments. I’m certainly not suggesting that I set the ground rules or even know what they should be. It is all a chasing after the wind and quite futile in my opinion. What that, I will bow out of this discussion and will hold my values and beliefs in my own heart. Thank you all for the short distraction.
Comment by: Helen
16 10/2/07 8:13 AM | Comment Link |Kewl, I understand why you’re bowing out.
Thanks for engaging as much as you did. I’ve learned from you and you’ve reminded me to be careful not to judge people too hastily. I appreciate that and I wish you well in your book writing and other endeavors in life.
Comment by: Helen
17 10/2/07 8:41 AM | Comment Link |Right…I think Kewl is pointing out that works the other way too; that a person without much money who gives nothing is giving less by any standards, including Jesus percentage one, than a rich guy who gives a lot.
That’s exactly how I feel…and you may well be doing better than me based on Jesus’ standard (and so might Kewl).
Comment by: Matt Casper
18 10/2/07 11:33 AM | Comment Link |I think Kewl (note: I really dislike it when people hide behind screen names) is like many prosperous Christians: unable to say, “Jesus would be ok with me being rich while there are people going hungry.”
Because that’s the deal, really. They know the Jesus in the bible would NOT be ok with their brand of capitalism and therein lies their hang-up.
As I don’t believe Jesus was supernatural and I will not be held accountable in any afterlife, I have no such hang-ups. I can follow the “gist” and not the word. But if you believe in the word, then–by all means–follow it, or you are unequivocally hypocritical.
My opinion, as always.
Matt
Comment by: Matt Casper
19 10/2/07 11:38 AM | Comment Link |I personally feel relieved now that ‘Kewl’ has bowed out because he said some really negative, nihilistic things in his last and final post.
“The unconvinced, the convinced, believers and unbelievers won’t ever engage in honest exchange.”
Maybe for you, Mr./Ms./Mrs. Kewl. But we do talk. We let our defenses down and talk. Stop looking to justify your life choices and start living fearlessly, I say…
Comment by: Braden
20 10/2/07 2:47 PM | Comment Link |Matt
I’ve been watching this discussion. Tempted to say something but held back.
Kewl had some good things to say. I didnt’ agree with them all but he did make you think. I think your last comments regarding him/her validates him/her bowing out of here.
You obviously chose to ignore what he/she shared that he did care for the poor. I’ve gone back and looked at a lot of what he had to say. He/she was rational even if you didn’t agree with what was said.
I would say that he/she does live his life rather courageously in light of the fact that his/her prosperity isnt’ very popular with atheists or Christians. He/she can apparently put up with people like you taking parting, cheap and very immature shots on his way out of the door.
You could have been descent and rational and say, Thanks Kewl for being here. Thank for the exchange.
I guess its easier just to kick him on his way out of the door. You aren’t looking for open candid exchange. You’re obviously looking for someone to kick around and some pussy that will just agree with you.
Your definitly as bigoted as most christians that I know.
Thats the most cowardly act I’ve seen on this forum.
Comment by: Matt Casper
21 10/2/07 4:46 PM | Comment Link |Braden: your language is unacceptable.
On his way out the door, I did not kick, but only repeated “Kewl’s” comment: “The unconvinced, the convinced, believers and unbelievers won’t ever engage in honest exchange.” That offends me because engaging in those kinds of honest exchanges is what I do.
Kewl hid his identity, said he/she “knew a lot more, but couldn’t say…” and finally left on his/her own accord because, I believe, he/she felt unable to respond to the fair questions being put to him/her.
Kewl has likely made a lot of money and is looking for biblical reasons to keep it, but—as you may know—it will be hard for rich people to get into heaven (Matthew 19:24).
I am not bigoted. I only asked him and anyone this question: how do you reconcile making a lot of money with being a follower of Jesus?
So much of what Jesus said was about helping the poor, not being greedy, etc. And so much of what Americans practice is exactly the opposite.
Would Jesus live in mansion by the sea if people were starving only a few miles away? I doubt it.
And I don’t believe it was anything I had to say that drove “Kewl” away.
He came in looking for a fight, didn’t find one, was made uncomfortable by questions, and left.
He called what we do futile and expects ground rules for dialog (the only one here is: be polite) and rather than continue to try and learn, he left when he encountered statements and ideas that did not conform to his belief system. I think that’s sad.
Finally, let me say once more that I think your language is unacceptable and you owe everyone here an apology.
Comment by: Braden
22 10/2/07 8:28 PM | Comment Link |You are a bully. I haven’t a clue as to what kind of moralist you think that you are but to say that my language was unacceptable, I honestly dont’ have a clue as to what I said that would offend anyone, much less an atheist who doesnt believe in standards (that would mean the you would have to believe in God). You are looking for forum for every one to agree with whatever your viewpoint is. You dont’ believe in God. You are God. You’re interested in dialog that agrees with your warped since of whatever you think that you believe. You want me to apologize to you for disagreeing with you? Youre crazy. I think Kewl was “avoiding” an argument. You are the bully who wanted to argue. What’s going to happen is, people are going to see this lame forum for what it truly is. A big ego with a little tiny voice. Youre a disgrace to atheism. At least most of the atheist I know have some integrity and are intelligent.
Comment by: Braden
23 10/2/07 8:33 PM | Comment Link |One last thing. Youre jealous of any one who has money. Thats why you don’t have any and won’t. You don’t even believe in Jesus. Who are you trying to lecture anyone about what Jesus would do? Youre crazy! The only way youll win this fight that YOU picked is to ban from me being on here. We’ll I’m not wasting one more minute of life with a you!
Comment by: Matt Casper
24 10/2/07 8:46 PM | Comment Link |I don’t respond to personal attacks. Good bye.
Comment by: DeepThought
25 10/3/07 5:13 AM | Comment Link |Whoa, this has gotten out of hand. While Braden is obviously angry, I will say that as a former attorney, you can’t have open honest discussion by attempting to prove any point by throwing out questions demanding a ‘yes/no’ response when in fact the question requires much more depth of explanation and exploration. Thats an interrogative style that works when an attorney is attempting to prove a preconceived idea as in, ‘my client is not guilty.’ Their line of questioning is going to be asked in such a way that presupposes that their client isn’t guilty (or ‘is guilty’ from the prosecutorial side). Asking ‘yes/no’ type questions to a theological question will never achieve the goal of open honest exchange. Theology is much more closely akin to philosophy in that regard. Open honest exchange comes from a position of learning not presupposing. The way I see what happened with Kewl is, he didn’t want to go into the detail that was apparently required to proper hermeneutics (objective interpretation of scripture). When Matt attempted to isolate him with yes/no questions, Kewl saw that going nowhere. I don’t expect Matt or anyone else here to agree with me, but I’ve made, won and lost arguments all of my life (and yes, Matt, I made a lot of money; so I’m one of those that you might consider, ‘rich people’ of which you’ve already determined to be the accused, indicted, tried and found guilty of being anti-Jesus). So, I know that I won’t be welcome here. This is obviously not a forum where people like me are heard (or maybe even tolerated). This forum seems to a place where atheism can be validated by the idea that Christians are somehow evil (which I’m not sure how that fits into the atheistic viewpoint). Be that as it may, if you are in the least open to honest exchange, there’s my only and final thoughts.
Comment by: Helen
26 10/3/07 7:37 AM | Comment Link |DeepThought thank you for your feedback. I’m sorry we’ve disappointed you.
Our goal is respectful dialog, not debate.
I will be reviewing this conversation with other people involved in it to see if we attained that goal and if not, how we can do better in future.
Please don’t write us off based on one conversation (just as you would rather we don’t judge you); I would love you to visit our other blogs. give our other blogs a chance - at present we have more commenters on them and I hope you will find a friendly welcoming environment there.
Braden, in my opinion what you said to Matt was unfair and disrespectful but as I said to Deep Thought we will review whether we are attaining our ‘respectful dialog’ goals and try to do better in future to the extent we aren’t.
Comment by: Matt Casper
27 10/3/07 9:08 AM | Comment Link |Mr./Ms. DeepThought: I personally don’t consider rich people to be anti-Jesus. I only ask how do they reconcile being wealthy with what Jesus said in Mattthew 19:24. (Is there any other thing he says that he felt important enough to repeat?) That’s all. And no one has answered it yet.
I would like to apologize for my “good riddance” comment. I should have said “I personally feel relieved now that ‘Kewl’ has bowed out because he said some really negative, nihilistic things in his last and final post.”
This is not a place where either Christianity or atheism are “validated.” Only discussed. You, the reader, decides what is valid.
Comment by: Helen
28 10/3/07 9:43 AM | Comment Link |Matt, thanks for apologizing. I have often written in haste and repented at leisure so I know how that goes!
For what it’s worth, I disagree about Kewl - the only time I have ever been happy to see someone leave is when they demonstrate absolutely no desire to engage with others. I have hardly ever seen that. And besides, I liked Kewl.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
29 10/3/07 1:45 PM | Comment Link |Wow - this is starting to sound like a lot of other blogs I dont like myself.
I agree that Kewl was providing a very interesting view point and if what he said about himself is true (forgive the gender presumptions) and he has money it is even more valuable to hear from him.
We really dont typically get into this level of vitriol. Matt and I co belligerate around many things but his views on his take on Jesus and capitalism dont fall into that category
Comment by: Benjamin ady
30 10/3/07 6:23 PM | Comment Link |Just wanted to throw into the mix that entirely aside from the ideas about money, christianity, the poor, the rich, atheism, etc, I found Braden’s use of the word “pussy” hurtful. It struck me as a slur against women in general, and when I think of women in general, my thoughts automatically go to my favorite most awesome woman in particular–my lovely wife Megs. And thinking of her in the same sentence as “pussy”, with it’s attendant objectification and diminishment, was personally painful.
Kewl, I’m kind of sorry you bowed outta the conversation. I was hoping to hear your response to my comment (#5) above.
You said:
I’m sorry you feel that way. I can only imagine that you must have had some really painful experiences when attempting to engage in the honesty exchange you refer to. I’ve also had painful experiences in the pursuit of such exchange. I find that in spite of that, I am ongoingly drawn to seek it again. I hope that you experience it in some community in your life, even if you were unable to experience it here.
I wonder what you think about the idea of “Leaning into the difference”? I learned this from Dwight Friesen, a prof at Mars Hill Grad School. He talked about how often our natural tendency is that when we have a relationship or interaction where we find that the other person is different from us in such a way that the interaction/relationship causes pain, we tend to move away from/avoid that relationship/interaction in the future. Dwight theorizes that what Jesus calls us to do is to instead of avoiding, to “lean into” that relationship–that in such relationships are where we experience real growth as human beings. not that I’m any good at this. Often I’m crap at it. It’s too hard. But it strikes me as a lovely, if impossible, ideal.
would love to hear your thoughts if you’re still reading!
Benjamin
Comment by: DeepThought
31 10/4/07 12:23 AM | Comment Link |I wished I knew how to reach Kewl. My intuition (though I don’t have the facts) tells me that this guy experienced that world at some level and probably as intimately (or more) as he inferred. I think Jim felt that from him as well.
As I read his postings, I could see that he was treading lightly in order not be attacked again by a Christian or an atheist. I also saw his sincerity.
Honestly, I made my last posting here just to defend myself from the presupposition that I too would be accused of being a heretic or non-follower of Jesus.
Matt, with the attitude that came across in your postings near the end of Kewl’s short stay here and especially after he left, you seemed to be the one who wanted to argue and pick a fight. Kewl appeared to ‘not be looking for fight’ and was not going to enter into one. I see that as the reason he got off of here.
Again, my intuition (though I can’t prove it)is that I bet that Kewl is reading this and again, refuses to engage in the fray. If he’s indeed been in the conflicting and chaotic behaviors, mindset and scenarios of having been close to the world he referred to, then he deserves and has the right to living his life in peace.
I appreciate Matt’s apology albeit a selective apology. And as far as him ‘hiding behind a screen name’ well, Matt, you guys selected the forum here which encourages open and honest exchange because one can enjoy a certain level of anonymity.
Isn’t that part of the beauty of being able to exchange via the Internet?
I’ve thoroughly read back over this whole discussion post by post. I would say that until you’ve been put in a place of responsibility (like apparently Kewl has) over large amounts of money (which is a very relative thing), you don’t know how you would conduct your life and your wealth.
It sounds to me like Kewl was in just such a position. It also was refreshing to see his/her heart in caring about and for the less fortunate.
Matt, in a Christian perspective, it is a matter of stewardship. Though I’m not going to get into the discussion or argument regarding the contextual message that Jesus was attempting to convey, I will say that Jesus did teach stewardship.
In that passage about the rich passing through the eye of needle, there is much more to it objectively than simply putting that one question to someone and asking for a ‘yes/no’ answer. It takes far more thought than simply answering such a flippant question. Its the old proverbial ‘are you still beating your wife’ dilemma (and no Benjamin, I’m not using that literally; I don’t beat my wife nor suppose that anyone else does here; just a figure of speech; and please refrain from using the world ‘crap’; that conjures up images that much less than desirable; at least to me (irony):{).
You have a presupposed outcome that you want to prove and you ask your question in such a way that it isn’t possible to satisfy with an open honest answer.
You’re conveying that no answer is going to satisfy you unless it is, ‘rich people can’t go to heaven’ even though I realize that you don’t believe in heaven (which kind of makes this whole discussion insane to begin with). Your continued reference to ‘nobody is answering my question’ shows hostility and lack of open honest exchange.
Now if you go off on me like you did Kewl, I’ll disappear from here as well. (And I know that I’m treading on dangerous ground by even attempting to communicate with you here; so if you do go off on me, realize that I’m an old, old dog and you won’t tempt me into a debate or argument with you; like Kewl, I’m far smarter than that; plus, I choose to live my life in peace; that’s why I’m an ‘ex’ attorney).
I’m not a theologian nor a Bible expert. However, I’ve been around Christianity for a while.
If you study the reference Jesus made to a ‘camel going through the eye of a needle’ you will find that this is a literal every day event in the Biblical culture of the times. It did not infer that a camel pass through a sewing needle.
A ‘needle’ in this contextual message is a small entry point in the wall of a city (also realize that the English of King James is over 400 years old; so many words that were used then are now obsolete). The camel would literally have to bow in order to get through the needle.
The disciples asked in reply to Jesus’ illustration was, ‘who then can be saved?’ Were they saying that everyone on the planet is rich and thus, bound to go to hell? Obviously not. What I take it that they were saying is, ’so how do we bow (humble) ourselves for salvation?’
Jesus then followed with something to the effect of, ‘all things are possible with God’. In other words, bowing or humbling one’s life before God.
To say that ‘no rich people can go to heaven’, as Kewl referenced, how could anyone in the Old Testament who was highlighted as a person who followed God, end up in heaven? They couldn’t. So with a full ‘contextual’ understanding of the Bible and a little deeper thought and study, that’s how I see that passage.
Now, Matt, I’m going to say again (get this straight), if you want to write me off or berate me for my open honest exchange, then don’t expect me to hang around. If you want to debate on the existence of heaven, I’m not going to try to convince you of its existence. You obviously don’t believe in its existence and that is a matter of faith, not scientific proof.
Matt, one other thing you might consider. How much time have I spent in this posting defending myself from your possible attack on me? By what I’ve read here, I’m simply protecting myself from an expectation that I have in how you handled Kewl and the tone of your postings. Jump on me and you’ll win. I don’t need that ‘crap’ (I quote Benjamin; and please forgive me and Benjamin if anyone finds the word ‘crap’ as offensive :)
I hope this is helpful from an old man that at least tries to seek wisdom and understanding along with his faith.
One last thing. Someone mentioned that Kewl sounded more like Ayn Rand. I thought that was a very good observation. He does sound like her at least with some Christian perspective (as ironic as that is). He did sound rational although he also seemed very cautious. Again, I’m not surprised at his departure. He was a bit defensive and Matt basically gave him reason to maintain that posture. I don’t blame him. Who wants to open themselves to not being wanted especially when this whole effort is voluntary.
So there you have my thoughts. I’ll monitor all of your responses and decide accordingly whether I’ll stay here, respond or not.
Matt, the ball is in your court. Play it well my friend.
Comment by: Kewl
32 10/4/07 6:11 AM | Comment Link |Thank you DeepThought.
You said it all very well.
I think my actions in not arguing and simply bowing out proves my motives for being here regardless of whatever accusations were levied against me.
I’ve engaged dialog with atheists for a long time. Several have become very good friends. However, my experience with atheists, as I’ve had here, is not uncommon. Many Christians hold the same viewpoint as Matt. That is why I chose to protect myself. Matt, my friend, you proved my need to do so.
Nonetheless, the experience that I had here does not cause me to typify atheists either.
Matt, thank you for your apology. Jim, you’re the kind of atheist that I now know as my friends. Helen, thank you for your consistent kindness, thoughtfulness, reason and compassion. Braden, thanks for the support (but do grow up; I bet you’re not over 25 years old, was an honor student in high school, you’re in a Christian college somewhere but have a secular major; I also bet that if you haven’t already or don’t engage regularly, you’ve at least thought of going and having a beer a time or two). DeepThought, you and I should dialog more. Benjamin, thanks for the interaction, support and amusement (I’m sorry but your offense at the word Braden used and then your use of the word ‘crap’, just made me smile; I’m far too visual). Let’s see, I think that covers everyone.
Much love and blessings to all of you.
Comment by: Braden
33 10/4/07 7:35 AM | Comment Link |So that’s the word that you all were offended in me using? I honestly didn’t know.
Well I dont’ know what your definition of ‘pussy’ is, but with me, I do and always have thought that Webster’s def served me best.
puss·y - noun, plural puss·ies.
1. a cat, esp. a kitten.
2. the game of tipcat.
3. the tapering piece of wood used in tipcat.
If you need clarification, I was using it in reference the first def. Sometimes referred to in slang as ’scaredy-cat’.
Any other interpretation of the word would be perverted. So, I don’t know how you all interpreted it (well, obviously Benjamin has shown what it means to him.)
Comment by: DeepThought
34 10/4/07 9:30 AM | Comment Link |Braden, I must say that you have a very sharp mind and obviously a quick wit. You made me laugh but you as Kewl said, you still need to grow up.
Oh was Kewl right about your age, college, major, etc.?
Comment by: Matt Casper
35 10/4/07 9:36 AM | Comment Link |Whoa! Jim’s not the atheist! That’s me! Just a friendy correction of who’s who.
DeepThought and Kewl: thanks for your kind and thoughtful words. Your thoughts, opinions, and dialoging skills are exactly what this site needs, and I hope you stick around.
I confess: I am not that good on chat boards. Maybe my communicating style is better suited for face to face. You be the judge: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GC5fOMXyy8&mode=related&search=
The historical context for the needle passage made a huge impression on me. Seeing/hearing/speaking/living in context, in general, is something that I am making my personal mission. I have to rethink that passage I have been so comfortable brandishing (yes, brandish: like a weapon… I apologize).
It was I who made the Ayn Rand comparison. I hear so much in modern political/social/religious discourse that embraces her “everyone pursuing their own self-interest benefits society as a whole” line of reasoning. Frankly, it worries me.
I think it would make sense if every person in the world were born into the exact same circumstances, but we’re not. FDR put it better when he said (and I paraphrase), “A society is judged by how it treats its poor.”
I think my reaction to “Christians with Money” is based on my experiences at churches like Lakewood and Willow Creek (and with so-called Christians like GW Bush whose economic policies are anything but Christian). After all, it’s not money itself that’s the root of all evil, but the LOVE of money.
And when I saw people invoking Jesus’ name to get poor people to part with their money, well, it got my dander up (possibly for good).
So I have some thinking to do. I still think Americans put love of money before love of just about everything else. But I also think I may have to retire my “camel/needle” argument as it is out of context, which is anathema to me…
Thanks for being polite, patient, and forgiving.
Matt
Comment by: Braden
36 10/4/07 9:40 AM | Comment Link |Wonder how he knew all that? That guy is a little spooky. Yes, very Christian college. 21 years old. Business major. 4.0 high school and yes, I do have a Guinness once in a while. Maybe Kewl was one of those guys on television that could tell you more about yourself than you knew about yourself. That is pretty amazing! Most people think I’m much older than what I am. Hmmmm………..
Comment by: Kewl
37 10/4/07 9:44 AM | Comment Link |Matt, you’ve won my respect. Thank you. Sorry Jim. I should have payed closer attention. My mistake.
Comment by: benjamin ady
38 10/4/07 10:33 AM | Comment Link |Thankyou all. I love the way that, after it got all sort of vitriolic, it turned around and became more conversational again. That rocks, so you all rock!
And just a little By the way, I’m guessing Jim was probably kind of chuffed to have been mistakenly identified as an atheist.
BICBW
Oh–Braden–you nailed me on the … “kitten” thing. Guess I just have a filthy mind. Alas.
Comment by: benjamin ady
39 10/4/07 10:48 AM | Comment Link |oh, just to stir the pot a little re: jesus’ thoughts on wealth–what about this quote, which is posted over at CatE
your thoughts?
Comment by: Kewl
40 10/4/07 12:02 PM | Comment Link |Benjamin,
That is awesome! I totally agree. I think that is where ‘evangelical Christianity’ gets way off.
I would further assert that Jesus would look at Evangelical Christianity and wonder what it was? I don’t think he would have any identity with it.
Frankly, the whole getting ’saved’ thing, though definitely alluded to in scripture, has been defined by evangelicals as whatever their prescribed ’steps’ to salvation are.
The disciples simply started following Jesus and his teachings. They never walked an aisle (this was a practice that began with John Wesley in the 1700s and wasn’t fully developed until about 150 years ago.)
When I was a pastor, I had people chastise me for not ‘giving an altar call.’ I tried my best to understand where the ‘altar’ came from and never found anything outside of the altars of sacrifice in the Old Testament.
I did my research on the ‘altar call’. For any person who chose to think past some kind of Bible belt religion, if everyone had to answer an ‘altar call’ to be saved, then for eight and half centuries, everyone must have gone to hell.
To delve into the understanding regarding much of what we believe, the development of the King James Bible, the acceptance of the canon of scripture, the traditions and religious practices handed down for two millenia, would be a deep sea with strong currents and massive waves.
However, you indeed want a comprehensive understanding of it all, but it would require knowing a lot more than what anyone has time to share here. Perhaps it simply needs to unfold.
Your thoughts?
Comment by: Kewl
41 10/4/07 12:08 PM | Comment Link |Oh Matt, I watched your video. Well done. You seemed much more complimentary to Joel there than you came across here. Again, this forum loses some of that ‘face to face’ benefit. And also, I didn’t notice any horns, pitchforks or red suits :) Imagine that! (smile)
Actually you seem like a great guy! I appreciate you sharing that with me.
Comment by: Helen
42 10/4/07 1:44 PM | Comment Link |Wow, I’m so glad to see this conversation taking a more friendly direction - thanks everyone! Kewl, Braden and DeepThought, thanks for giving us another chance.
Kewl, this has a lot to do with why Jim (and a friend of his) founded Off The Map. Sometimes Jim says his goal is to ‘rescue Jesus from religion (meaning such things as Evangelical Christianity) and take him public.
Matt’s theme question in the book i.e. “Is this what Jesus told you guys to do?” also relates to what you wrote. We’d like Christians to have permission to ask questions like this. If Atheists wonder why there’s sometimes such a difference between Jesus and Evangelical Christianity, why aren’t more Christians wondering that too?
Is this why you stopped being a pastor, i.e. because of the mismatch between Jesus and Evangelical Christianity?
Comment by: Kewl
43 10/4/07 2:35 PM | Comment Link |Helen,
I left the church because I sincerely felt it in my heart. I’ve self published four books in the past two years. I know that writing is my ultimate calling.
Interestingly enough, the organization that took over the church I had is now wanting me to take it back. That doesn’t feel good to me. Ironically, in light of all that’s been said here, they have made a very good offer.
Nonetheless, its not what is in my heart. I would become an organizational pawn and I’m not good at that. I’ve never been good at doing anything just because the money is good. I have to follow my heart.
Frankly, the organization doesn’t hold the same values that I hold on certain subjects. The major area that we don’t hold the same values is in helping those in need.
When I was a pastor, I did my dead level best to help everyone who came to us for help. When the present organization took over, they didn’t stay in keeping with that.
We had a reputation of helping those in need to the extent that other churches and pastors, whose hands were tied by their organization, deacon or elder boards, would send people in need to us. We budgeted over $200,000 a year to help those in need and often did even more. I do not recall turning down any genuine need. (I had the occasional request to help someone make a payment on a late model sports car, which wasn’t hard for me to say ‘no’ to.)
I’m all for what Jim is attempting to do with what you described. I got involved with the discussion about Joel O and TD Jakes before I really took a look at what Jim and Matt were doing.
The mismatch between Jesus and the evangelical church is huge. Since, I think it was Matt who brought up ‘W’ (my fellow Texan), well, I’m tempted to give my views on ‘W’ but that’s a whole other hornet’s nest. I’ll leave that one alone for now. Let me just say that he and I would very likely see eye to eye on that subject.
Comment by: Helen
44 10/4/07 7:29 PM | Comment Link |Thanks for your answer, Kewl.
It must have been frustrating having an organization take over the church you pastored whose values were different from yours.
The churches I was in for 20 years pretty much defined ‘in need’ as ‘in need of salvation’. They had very little focus on meeting peoples’ basic needs, because the really important thing was saving their souls, not their physical lives.
I was glad Jim and Matt visited Lawndale on their church visits near me. I have always heard good things about their work for their community - I’ve been friends with people who’ve worked in their health center - and I’m glad Jim and Matt were pleased with what they found there.
Comment by: Kewl
45 10/5/07 1:40 AM | Comment Link |You can’t distinguish between those who are in need of physical, emotional, financial or spiritual care. Jesus made that quite clear.
Helping those in need, in my opinion, is part of what ‘prospering’ is all about. If you truly do believe that God provides all of your needs according to his riches in heaven, as described in Phil. 4:19, then you have no trouble helping others in need.
The evangelical church seems to always be focused on heaven, not much on this life. I appreciate those who are giving the focus of having God involved in your every day life. Our faith is for now, not just the ‘hereafter’.
I know and have witnessed the hypocrisy of tithing and ‘helping the Lord’s work’ and then not doing anything to help the poor. I really appreciate the work of people like Matthew Barnett in L.A. He is not just helping them eat today, which is obviously very important, but he is also providing training for them to eventually feed themselves. You know the old illustration of ‘teaching a man to fish’.
I do appreciate what Jim and Matt are doing, the closer I look at it. As you mentioned, I’m very disillusioned with the evangelical church’s attitude in this regard. They are far away from what Jesus said, taught and did.
Larry Jones, a Baptist minister from Oklahoma City is a great example of one who is doing something to help those in need. I also understand from a lady I know who worked for him that he raises millions of dollars a year for the needy.
I took 3 months right after the big hurricanes, Katrina and Rita, and helped with relief efforts on the Texas Gulf Coast. I volunteered for the Red Cross. I made several trips taking baby formula, diapers and other food items to the victims in Beaumont, Texas from a distribution center near Dallas. Amongst all the devastation, I saw Larry Jones trucks everywhere I went. He is doing an awesome job when it comes to helping the poor and those in need.
There is so much to say about how far the evangelical church has strayed from the teachings Jesus. I’m happy to encourage anyone and everyone who is pointing others in that direction.
Comment by: Helen
46 10/5/07 6:01 AM | Comment Link |Kewl wrote:
I agree - Jesus was on a rescue mission and I think it was much bigger than ‘you get to go to heaven when you die’. “Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven” is obviously about THIS life and if all Jesus cared about was the next life, he wouldn’t have prayed that prayer.
Since atheists care about this life (of course since it’s all there is as far as they are concerned), if Christians care about it too, then those of us with resources should be able to work together and make this world a better place. Imo, one of the harmful effects of the conservative evangelical (ce) Christian subversion of Jesus’ mission is creating articifial divisions between ce Christians and people they could be working together with.
Matt was on a radio interview I heard - I forgot which one; maybe it was one that began rather badly actually - and at the very end he explained what he believes following Jesus should be all about. I thought he nailed it.
I think it’s a mistake to start acting as if we ‘own’ Jesus’ way and demanding of each other “This is how YOU should follow Jesus” as if there was only one answer and we somehow could have the certainty of God about what that one answer is. So Matt’s answer might not be exactly the same as someone else’s. But in general, only people whose theology gets in the way of seeing what Jesus was all about (based on a simple reading of all the gospels), could have said Matt is missing the point.
Kewl, you might be interested to know that Dave Richards, the chairman of the Off The Map board of directors is very involved in microfinance - which of course also is based on encouraging people to become financially viable long-term. He just got back from 2 1/2 weeks in India visiting microfinance institutions there. He’s written about that on his blog, which is here: defeating global poverty
Awesome…I wish I could say I did the same.
That certainly is what Off The Map aims to do. This year we adopted the mission statement that we promote otherlyness: the spirituality of serving. We want to separate ourselves from ways of following Jesus which focus on ‘beliefism’, which much of the ce church is caught up with, and ways which seem all about power and control rather than being servants following in the way of Jesus.
I was surprised to run across the quote Benjamin mentioned, which I put on CatE the other day, because it sounded so much like we could have written it.
Comment by: Kewl
47 10/5/07 8:00 AM | Comment Link |I love all that you said.
The ‘we own Jesus’ mentality is one that I’ve identified in the past in those same words. Basically, they are saying, ‘we own the keys to the kingdom as in, we own the keys to YOU avoiding eternal punishment’. That is so much, well, you know. Its a Mafia tactic. Its the threat of eternal punishment ‘unless you do it OUR WAY’.
I have acquaintances who are non-trinitarian Pentecostals. Unless you get baptized in THEIR church, using THEIR prescribed way of being baptized, then you can’t go to heaven. I know others who are of the Church of Christ. They believe almost the exact same thing.
I’ve met Baptists who follow the same pattern. (BTW, I live right under the buckle of the Bible belt).
There is no longer a focus on worshiping God with Jesus as the centerpiece. It is the worship of ‘our thing’. How WE do it. How we do it the RIGHT WAY and everyone else is wrong.
That is deception and error of religion at its core.
Comment by: Helen
48 10/6/07 10:25 AM | Comment Link |Kewl wrote:
Kewl, I have heard of such churches; I’m glad I never went to a church that sectarian!
Exactly.
This podcast is with one of my friends, John Armstrong - he’s a (fairly) conservative Christian who dialogs with emerging Church Christians, Catholics and Orthodox Priests with the goal of furthering Christian unity, in accordance with Jesus’ prayer “that they may be one”. It would be neat to see more Christians caring more about this evident desire Jesus had for unity among his followers.
Comment by: Kevin J.
49 10/8/07 10:36 PM | Comment Link |Coming in after following up on this conversation from the beginning, I had a similar question: a friend of mine subscribes to the theory that “Christians should use other Christians for their services as much as possible, such that the money they give will, in some small way, go further to the kingdom of God.” When I first heard this, I reacted somewhat badly to it, since I’m more of a “Jesus ate with tax collectors, etc.” type. I finally realized that one of the things that drives me crazy about modern-day Christianity is the separate universe Christians have created. Don’t like secular music? Tune in to Christian radio. Don’t like the books out there? Go to Lifeway. Don’t like the public school system putting ideas into your kids’ heads? Start a private school (or homeschool).
While there is good in all of those things, it’s not really engaging the rest of the world, and I think that’s my fundamental issue with my friend’s views. I’d be interested to see what other people think.
Comment by: Helen
50 10/9/07 6:47 PM | Comment Link |Thanks for your comment Kevin. I’m going to repost it on Conversation at the Edge tomorrow and see what people say in response.
Edited to add: here it is
Should Christians favor Christian services?
Comment by: Kewl
51 10/10/07 1:44 PM | Comment Link |Kevin,
I understand what you’re saying and agree that there is really no place in Bible that advocates ‘only doing business with other Christians’.
My kids went to private school at one time. Frankly, they had as many or more negative influences there than they have in public schools.
I think we are encouraged to do just the opposite of isolating and staying to our own little group of Christian friends.
On another note. Has anyone here ever been to the ‘atheists for Jesus’ site? They make a distinction between the teachings Jesus vs. the teaching of Paul, the apostle. Very interesting and thought provoking to say the least.
As I’ve read there, I realize that I’ve never looked at Paul’s teaching and Jesus’ teaching separately. It is obvious how much that Paul has influenced and shaped much of the modern church. He in fact, interpreted, from a Messianic historical and prophetical perspective what Jesus in fact did.
What the owners of this site have said is that Paul attempted to round out the teaching of Jesus according to his own thoughts and understandings. Anyway, it is very interesting and opens up an even deeper can of worms.
Comment by: Matt Casper
52 10/10/07 5:09 PM | Comment Link |Kewl: I have asked people along the way (especially when they quote Corinthians), “Do you practice Christianity or Paulianity?”
Can of worms, indeed…