REVIEW: Mixed Feelings at Heart of the Valley
Andy R. attended a church back in June several times and had some mixed feelings about the experience. It appears that she very much enjoyed the worship program and its pastor, but had a hard time feeling motivated by the teaching pastor (I can think of a lot of church experiences where I felt this kind of dualism).
Check out Andy’s comments and let us know what you think!
Church Name - Heart of The Valley Community Church
Church Location - Reseda, California
Date Attended - June 18, 2006
Overall Rating -  1. Sad. I just left feeling sorry for them…  &Â
                      -  9. Transcendent! My life was changed!Was the building easy to find? If you drove, was it hard to find parking? How about the exterior or interior signage? what would you do differently?
It’s a plain building that blends in with an ugly stretch of street. The website directions weren’t hard to follow. Parking was hard. The signs are weird. One is an old reader board and the big one on the corner has a changing electronic sign. They both look like budget bargains.Did anyone approach you and speak to you before the service got underway? If so, how did you feel about that? Can you share their name(s)? Did you know them before your visit?
Never more than simple greetings. People were friendly on the surface, but I always felt like people were just doing their duty. I tried both of the morning services.As you observe the people “doing their church thing,†what goes through your mind? Are you able to understand why they do what they do? Do they seem sincere?
Some people seemed like they were just there because they had to be. Others really got into the worship.What do you think about the rituals (the liturgy or the program)?
It was ok. Certain parts were good, other things like the preaching were really boring.Check out the church program/bulletin. Is there anything in it you find confusing or offensive? If this were your “business,†how would you improve this communication piece?
All their bulletins and printed information looks amateur and cluttered.What did you think of the music? Did you enjoy any of it? Was it boring? Write down the feelings you had while watching or participating.
The music was awesome with lots of passion. The two guys leading the team on guitar and piano were great. I didn’t understand why sometimes some people weren’t participating. On Easter Sunday one of the guys said the same thing. It was cool to see a pastor be honest and put worship into perspective for all of us. The worship was exciting and got me excited about God. Too bad the worship pastor left. I stopped trying the church after that.
What did you think of the prayers? As you listened to the prayers, what did you learn about the people, either good or bad? Did they “major in the majors†or get lost in the minors?
When we did group prayers read from the screen or when the worship leaders prayed it was focused on God and made me want to know God more. Sometimes I would get emotional about God and how much he loves me. Sometimes they would bring other people up to pray for the money. They would be ok, but sometimes they would be distracting and dry or fake.Did the speaker or pastor seem likeable? Weird? Is she/he a person you’d enjoy having coffee with? If not, why not?
He seemed nice, but kind of fake. He came across like he was trying too hard. He did this weird talk in a costume on Christmas.How about the quality of her/his talk: does the speaker need public speaking lessons or is she/he pretty good? Did she/he seem engaged/sincere/condescending?
I went to this church from November to June several times. Every time the pastor who spoke was always kind of boring and shallow. He just seems like he reads at you or lectures you. He’s never mean, but he comes across like he’s talking to people who are dumb.Did the talk itself hold your attention? Was it enjoyable? Thought-provoking? Relevant? Credible? Did any part(s) of it particularly stand out to you in a positive or negative way?
I would find my head wandering every time. I got through the talks, but it wasn’t anything special. Sometimes he would say things that didn’t really match up with the Bible passage. I would leave confused. I never was excited about God when he was done.Did anyone approach you and speak to you after the service ended? If so, how did you feel about that? Can you share their name(s)? Did you know them before visiting?
The worship pastor did. He was cool. His name was Nathan and he invited me to the Sunday night service, but I always worked so I couldn’t go.Did you bring any adults or children with you to our service? If so, ask them about their experience. What did they tell you?
My parents came with me during Christmas. They thought it was nice, but the pastor couldn’t hold their attention. My friends came a couple times too. They really liked the worship, but not the senior pastor.How was your experience at the church overall? Did you enjoy it? Would there be any point in you going there again?
I tried them a few times and I looked at other churches. I enjoyed the worship, but I couldn’t see myself being happy with the teaching. It just wasn’t genuine. There weren’t enough people my age on Sunday mornings and I didn’t understand that. It made me wonder if there were bigger problems I didn’t know about. I felt bad for the worship pastor because some people acted like being at church was just a duty and he was so passionate and excited to worship.If this church expects to attract people like yourself , what do you suggest they improve that you haven’t already mentioned?
Have a better speaker. Get younger people to your services. It is mostly older people. I don’t know how the Sunday night was since I never got to go. Sunday mornings had a lot of good things, but they need to fix the obvious problems with the boring preaching and making people feel welcomed and making them want to stay.Do you have any other comments you want to share? What questions did we (ChurchRater.com) forget, that we should have asked?
I haven’t been back since June and I found a good place to worship now.
This kind of criticism can be hard for pastors and church leaders to take and digest - it would be for anyone! But I’m so thankful that Andy and many of our Raters are brave enough to tell the truth about their feelings and perceptions. No one here claims to be a “Professional Rater,” we don’t use statistical data or scientific methods. We share our worldviews, our churchviews, our godviews and our cultural perspectives to help eachother learn and grow.Â
Sometimes it’s a bitter pill to swallow, but I will argue that these practices make us better Christians and better human beings! Thanks Andy!
Comment by: Nathan
1 11/17/06 8:59 AM | Comment Link |My name is Nathan Clair and I am the former Teaching Pastor of this church. Part of my responsibilities was the oversight/leading of worship.
Andy’s comments about me were very kind and I feel bad because I do not remember meeting her.
I think she nailed some things right on the head and from her comments it sounds like she was going to the church for about 6 months. It saddens me that it only took a few visits over a short period of time for an attender to see the concerns that myself and 3 other former pastors tried to address. In the course of 18 months we all left in frustration. If you know anything about churches, you can imagine the kind of challenges that were in play behind the scenes too.
We need to continue to pray for church leaders everywhere. We need to pray for the hearts of pastors/elders and deacons that they would have discernment and humility to let go of their pet issues and pursue God’s dreams for people, not our little out-dated preferences.
Thanks, Andy, for your honesty.
I hope people will listen.
Comment by: Peter Walker
2 11/17/06 12:15 PM | Comment Link |Nathan,
It takes some serious courage to communicate the things you have and affirm the things you have today. Thank you for being open to this kind of dialogue. I can tell from your comments that you’ve taken some serious “hits” from clergy members.
Blessings to you.
I will be inviting pastors from Heart of the Valley to dialogue here with us, so I hope you and Andy will both hang around to graciously and humbly engage in dialogue.
Peter
Comment by: Nathan
3 11/17/06 2:36 PM | Comment Link |Thanks Peter. I think this is a good place for people to be able to dialogue with honesty.
I think overall that Heart of the Valley is a place that is trying to minister in a challenging environment. Those challenges come from within and without, but I hope that these church reviews do not obscure the fact that sincere people are working hard in every one of these churches to do the “right thing”. That is why I mentioned our need to pray for church leaders everywhere.
It’s important that Andy keeps this in mind when critiquing any church.
Despite the fact that I agree with her take on some things (i.e. reaching out to younger people), I have to be honest and say I wouldn’t have described certain things the way she did. If you don’t prefer someones teaching style, then say so, but don’t make implications about people’s authenticity. I think that could be problematic without having any real relationship with the people being evaluated.
Does that sound fair?
Comment by: Nathan
4 11/17/06 2:49 PM | Comment Link |I don’t mean to come across like I am rebuking you, Andy. I just think you might be on thin ice saying some of the things you said about the senior pastor. It presumes some things about the heart. I just want us to be careful if there is a dialogue online about this. It is a hard environment in which to “read” people.
Blessings.
Comment by: Peter Walker
5 11/17/06 4:51 PM | Comment Link |Nathan, I think that’s fair. I want to validate Andy’s perceptions as just that: genuine reactions to someone else in a public arena. So I think there’s always tension in how to best communicate what we see and feel.
But Nathan, I certainly understand where you’re coming from. As I do with Andy.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
6 11/17/06 8:45 PM | Comment Link |Nathan
Thanks for being direct about your experience at the church, your affirmation of Andy’s observations and your open question about whether it is good for people to make assumptions about peoples motives.
Here is my take on your insightful question.
Pastors and worship leaders stand up each Sunday and ask people to trust them. The simple act of standing on a platform which is maybe only 8 inches off the floor has an impact on the audience. They are asked to “assign trust” to those standing 8 inches higher. They are asked to assume the best of the leaders of the event (aka church service)
This is actually a power exchange of sorts - Those in power silently ask those with less power(btw- I know what the bible says about how it is supposed to be but I am talking here about the way it really is)to “trust” them. The people remain silent and come to all sorts of conclusions simply because as human beings it is impossible for us to not come to them.
At churchrater - we reverse the power and give the people seated 8 inches down the voice and ask those reading their thoughts to give them trust.
So while I agree that it might not be the highest or purest form of feedback - Andy’s honest subjective feelings are real and are in fact very representative of what many of the other silent human beings were feeling at the same time.
The moral of the story - if you stand 8 inches above others every week those watching you will make judgements about your motives- All the more reason to not aspire to stand 8 inches above people everyweek
Comment by: Nathan
7 11/18/06 9:26 AM | Comment Link |Jim,
I totally understand. I think it is important that we make explicit that we are talking about impressions, etc. And it looks like these comments do just that. I’m not trying to shut conversation down. I just want us all to be mindful of the limitations of this kind of electronic dialogue.
I’m looking forward to further responses from HVCC staff!
Comment by: Helen
8 11/18/06 2:05 PM | Comment Link |Nathan, thanks for sharing your thoughts here. We appreciate yours just as we appreciate Andy’s.
Speaking for myself, I would like us to give permission to someone to say “The speaker sounded fake to me”. I don’t want people who fill in reviews to feel like they have to take care of the pastor’s feelings. If the pastor wants people to do that he can go to his friends. Andy is not one of them and I for one appreciate her simply sharing her honest feelings.
By the way, if she hadn’t said that would you have admitted to having concerns yourself? Or would you have felt you had to keep them to yourself and not mention them on a public blog because it would be inappropriate?
Sometimes it takes a brave person to be the first one to speak up. I applaud Andy for being that brave person.
Comment by: Nathan
9 11/18/06 2:31 PM | Comment Link |Helen and all,
I think my only real point is that I wouldn’t want observers or participants to walk away with mis-perceptions about the character and motives of anyone.
I’m not against people sharing honestly their opinions and impressions, just that we express those against the backdrop of always giving the benefit of the doubt to people’s sincerity, etc.
I think I made clear in my last comments that I agreed about the need for younger people to be reached out to.
Also, I don’t think I need this particular forum to express my opinions. I worked at the church, I expressed my opinion on a daily basis, in board meetings and every avenue that was available to wrestle through deep and serious struggles within a particular church body. I don’t work there any longer for good reason.
It may seem ironic that I would counsel some circumspection and the need to complement our honesty with a mindfulness about being careful not to besmirch or impugn the character of people.
As I said in my previous comments…If you have a problem with a teaching style, say so.
I’m not saying that Andy did this. I was just counseling a general caution in the means of communication, not the substance.
Comment by: Nathan
10 11/18/06 2:34 PM | Comment Link |I think it would be good for us to get out of the way and wait for some other comments about the substance of the review. That’s what I’m going to do.
Blessings.
Comment by: Andy
11 11/18/06 4:14 PM | Comment Link |I filled out the survey. I do not think Nathan is discouraging me. What I understand is we all need to avoid making our comments seem like we are making personal attacks.
I think the pastor sounded fake sometimes. That’s how he sounded to me. I believe he is not a fake person. He just doesn’t speak well or say interesting things. Other people may like his talks. I didn’t.
That doesn’t mean he is a bad person.
I think it is good to point out the difference.
In Christ,
Andy
Comment by: Jim Henderson
12 11/20/06 9:10 AM | Comment Link |Blogging can be challenging when it comes to reading motives. But since most people either dont have or are not given a voice to express themselves in person it will have to suffice.
Silence is also insidious. It leaves us guessing and feeling guilty for having feelings. And it has the uniquer capacity of “masking itself as wisdom”
I agree with Helen that while we aspire to be respectful it is not our job to aspire to take care of pastors feelings. Pastors are given a public platform every week and without knowing it are offending or hurting peoples feelings every time they open their mouth. They cannot control what people will do with what they say and often dont hear about it for months or years following.
CR levels the playing field and lets ordinary people make the same mistakes and offer the same blessing
Comment by: Nathan
13 12/14/06 7:47 PM | Comment Link |Well, it’s sad to see no one responded. Not surprising, but sad.
Comment by: Ken Villers
14 01/8/07 10:35 PM | Comment Link |This church sucked. We visited for 3 weeks in a row in December. No one ever introduced themselves. Those people made us feel like we should not be in their church. The way people got through the service like they were putting in their time shows they are not being fed. And maybe they don’t really want to be.
Nobody should defend the pastor. He was so boring. I thought I was in a bible class for little kids. He was weird. He acted like he was doing a performance. I agree with the comment that he was fake.
The whole service felt like they were trying too hard to be something that they are not.
The buildings were ugly. I thought I was going to worship in an old factory. It was trash. The bathrooms were gross and smelled like years and years of use.
It is obvious that this church is dying. I looked around and hardly saw anyone middle-aged or younger. That says something about the place.
If the way we were treated is the way they do church then it will be a blessing to not have a church like that around. There are a lot of good churches in the valley. There is no need for a church like this.
We wanted to check out a smaller church where we could make a bigger contribution to serving. We love our current church, but sometimes we did not feel like we were really needed. We thought we should look for other places that could use our help. We looked since fall at a few other places. We didn’t connect with any of them, but we didn’t feel the revulsion we felt until we got here.
They may think they’re the heart of the valley, but that’s a joke.
We’re just sorry we even tried to find someplace else. It made us thankful for our church.
Comment by: Nathan
15 01/12/07 12:50 PM | Comment Link |Nathan Clair says:
Ouch.
Comment by: Helen
16 01/12/07 3:38 PM | Comment Link |Ken thanks for your comments.
Maybe if it made you appreciate your own church you got something out of it - indirectly.
Comment by: Remer
17 01/23/07 8:23 AM | Comment Link |I visited this church for the last time last week. After almost a year of visiting monthly.
Ken and Andy are correct. This is one of those churches that makes people not want to go to church anymore.