Feedback on Jim and Casper go to Church
If you’ve read Jim and Casper go to Church we’d love to hear your thoughts.
Jim and Casper will read every comment posted here. If you have something you want to share with them privately, you can e-mail them on the contact form
If you have a few minutes to post your thoughts on amazon.com also we’d appreciate it.
Here are some comments we’ve received so far.
I just read Jim and Casper Go to Church. Thank you for an honest and refreshing look inside the American church. As a PK and now an associate pastor I have grown increasingly frustrated with “church”. I too often wonder if this is really what Jesus had in mind - and i often think not. We do a lot of talking and not much doing. There has to be more. The “call to action” I got from the book is that it’s time for the church to ask some very hard questions and to get outside the wall and do something that builds the Kingdom.
Thank you!
Loved it! Very refreshing and honest. I am an education coordinator at a Presbyterian church. Hope to convince our evangelism committee to read it. Thank you for something real and down to earth.
Thank you for giving the average evangelism-minded Christian such a unique opportunity to learn how we are perceived by others. You have stretched my thinking and planted a seed in one who desires to be an “otherly” person, but realize my beliefs may come across as an impassable wall. I appreciate the respect that Jim and Casper showed for each other on every level. May God bless you both.
I enjoyed the book. As I reflected on the methodologies in the book, I am even more convinced that it is time to discard some long held convictions. The circus acts which you chronicle in the book solidify the idea that a “pastor-centric” church is nowhere near the model that Jesus designed for his church. Casper does a good job of reminding us that American Christianity has little resemblance to Jesus words. We are designing church just like your visit to Burger King…..”Have it YOUR way”. I dont think anybody is going to change their mind from reading your book, but it has provided a valuable perspective for the “household of faith”.
Comment by: Alonzo Odem
1 04/10/07 9:51 AM | Comment Link |Your book is interesting and descriptive of really what I have experienced and I did enjoy reading it. From the beginning of your excursions I began to wonder Jim if you would ever get to what “church” means with Casper or do you know? I personnally think that the only time Casper got to go to “church” was at Jason’s. While being polite and hospitable to Casper or any visitor to a “church” is I assume a show of good manner’s, his opinion and presence is irrelevant to the assembled believer’s. Casper I agree with alot of your oservations and faith really is just that faith, death will reveal the ultimate truth. If it’s okay or not, oh well, Casper I can still pray for you.
Alonzo
ekklēsia
ek-klay-see’-ah
From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):—assembly, church.
Comment by: Brian Schulenburg
2 04/11/07 3:52 PM | Comment Link |It’s a fascinating premise — a Christian hires an Atheist to accompany him to several churches and give his impression of Christians. Jim & Casper Go To Church is a new book publshed by Barna that is tough to put down. I’d highly recommend this book to any pastor, church leader, or sincere Christian that wants to understand how at least one Atheist views the church. Jim, the Christian, and Casper, the Atheist, visited such churches as Saddleback, Willow Creek, Mars Hill, Mosaic, and others, and rated their experiences. You can read about their ratings, and those of many other Atheists at http://www.churchrater.com. The site causes one to pause, and really think about what it is that we are communicating to spiritual seekers.
Comment by: Chris Mc
3 04/12/07 9:10 AM | Comment Link |Helen asked me to post a link to my review here. Thanks for the book guys. I really enjoyed it. I appreciate your honesty and humility in speaking about your experiences.
Here is my review…
Comment by: DonnaT
4 04/13/07 9:14 PM | Comment Link |I have found your book to be extremely thought provoking. Thank you for giving voice to so many people who remain silent for fear of being labled “bad Christian.” After reading the first chapter online yesterday, I felt compelled to buy and finish the book today. I couldn’t find it in my local Christian bookstores…….. The most difficult part for me to come to terms with is the idea of balancing faith and certainty. Nothing makes my skin crawl more than sitting in a Bible Study class learning how to “prove” the Bible is true - especially being told to use the Bible in order to prove the Bible. On the other hand, my faith is more than just a roll of the dice. As I grow in my relationship with the Lord, He becomes so very personal and almost tangible in my life. Each step of faith reveals more and more of Jesus to me, and my beliefs become more solid. It is a mystery why the God of the universe would care about me or you. I can’t understand why He seems to delight in my relationship with Him. But it is so very real. I think having these experiences with God make it difficult to sound “uncertain” of my faith. I agree that we will all know for certain “which path was right” when we die, and I am not immune to passing doubts like, “Is this all real or am I just fooling myself?” But most of the time the reality of a living, active, compassionate God is so near that the doubts are removed.
Comment by: RJ
5 04/15/07 9:36 PM | Comment Link |The book was somewhat painful to read, as it confirmed many of the suspicions I have had regarding church services. However, I was encouraged that Jim and Casper had the courage to attempt something of this magnitude. I’ve often wondered as a Christian and particularly as a minister, what Jesus actually thinks about what we are doing in our services, and the motivations behind what we do. The book provides an objectivity that I’m beginning to think is impossible to possess inside the church world; we’re usually convinced we have all the right answers, not realizing we aren’t even asking the right questions.
Hopefully, the book will stir dialogue. Although I consider myself an optimist, I don’t believe anything will change in the church world. Mainly because much of what we call the church world is nothing more than the kingdom of man. Man has never given up (w/out a fight) his kingdom (i.e. power, honor, prestige, reputation, wealth). Reading through the OT, God used a variety of methods to communicate to His people when they had strayed…even using a talking donkey to get through to Balaam the prophet, who sold out for money, honor, and prestige.
Maybe that is where we’re at now.
Comment by: Luke
6 04/16/07 6:37 AM | Comment Link |I loved the book! I really enjoyed reading the frank dialogue between christian and atheist. I also liked how there was such a deep respect shown on both sides for the other. For me, most of the book was not ‘new’ ideas, but it sure helped to have an atheist pointing out many of the issues, and now I’m able to look at that and learn.
Great book guys!
Comment by: Al Doyle
7 04/16/07 9:31 PM | Comment Link |Jim and Casper: come to my church! You guys had way too much fun (and I’m jealous). The insights you offer today’s church leaders is mighty valueable. I hope and pray that as church leaders read your book they resist the urge to get their panties in a bunch and really hear the sweet spirit in which your observations were presented. We all have so much to learn in how to be more welcoming, more relavant and just plain more honestly passionate about what we beleive in. I just order a bunch of copies to give to my fellow elders and our pastoral staff.
Keep ‘em coming.
Comment by: Gail Marvel
8 04/23/07 8:08 AM | Comment Link |My blog is is Christian Ear (http://christianear.blogspot.com/) This is my post for
April 11, 2007
Mini-Mega Church
I just read Jim & Casper Go To Church, written by Jim Henderson & Matt Casper. Jim (a longtime Christian) hired Casper (an atheist) to accompany him in visiting twelve of America’s best - and least – known churches. In the Forward George Barna states, “Marketers sometimes use a ‘mystery shopper’ – an unannounced, anonymous observer, who is secretly sent into a client’s environment to note what the experience is like for a typical outsider. In a sense, Casper was sent as a mystery shopper to examine the church environment in America.” I’m still digesting what I’ve read and I’m vacillating between two thoughts. Is it an eye opener or a black eye for the church in general? Most churches in America will not reach mega-church status – but that doesn’t keep them from trying. It’s interesting to read what’s happening in the mega-church and thought provoking to realize my mid-size church is emulating them even down to phraseology. I highly recommend this book to the average person in the pew. Not that it wouldn’t be a good read for leaders, but they, being the architects shaping today’s church, won’t be happy seeing their creations exposed.
Comment by: Matthew
9 04/24/07 8:36 AM | Comment Link |I work on a spiritual formation team at a church, and I convinced our director to order books for all of us to read over the summer as we completely revamp our approach. As a chaplain in the reserve armed services, I never wanted to work in a church because of politics, concessions and lack of face-to-face connection with people. I am loving the book and finding that it is ‘punching my ticket’ around every corner. I have talked about this book with other churched-folk and heard from most “well, that’s ONE atheist’s opinion”…which I believe is evidence that a dialogue MUST begin! Thanks for rocking the boat!
Comment by: Richard W
10 04/26/07 7:39 AM | Comment Link |I just finished your book, and absolutely loved it! I am intrigued by the perspectives of others and how they relate to a Biblical world view, especially the church, and am looking forward to discussion about the results. I think every church needs to work through the issue of calling and effectiveness, and find it exciting to see how God use different churches (although I am also partial to Lawndale!). On the journey with you, Richard
Comment by: Scott N
11 04/27/07 12:40 PM | Comment Link |I started the book recently and I cannot but it down. It is by far the most insightful thoughtful down to earth book you will ever read about how outsides see the church especially from the point of view of a non Christian. It was profound to me in small or large churches how little contact they had with people there. Are churches truly welcoming places??
Comment by: Paul Walker
12 04/28/07 4:46 AM | Comment Link |Just posted a review - a highly complimentary one - at my website (www.outofthecocooon.co.uk)
Thanks for the awesome book - relevant to us even here in the UK. I will be recommending it widely.
Comment by: Adam Young
13 05/2/07 11:28 AM | Comment Link |I am breaking down my review and thoughts about this book into chapter segments on my blog. So far, I only have the introduction and the first chapter (Saddleback), but I encourage all of you to comment on my blog thoughts! Look forward to “meeting” some of you!
http://www.psalm63adam.blogspot.com
Comment by: Daniel Dunnivan
14 05/4/07 7:31 AM | Comment Link |I thought this book was one the most the most fascinating books I have read in a long time. I have been in youth ministry for about 2 years now and the question I have been constantly comming back to is what is Jesus asking me to do, and how much of what I do is meaningless? I guess what I’m saying is I am so sick of making meaningless things meaningfull and the meaningfull things meaningless. And through out this book I realized a few things and intend on making some shifts. I have also recomended the book to pretty much everyone I know. One last thing, During the whole book I also felt very embarrassed! I went to a youth conference last year with 40,000 christian teens and at one point the wave started and continued through one of the speakers sermons, he ended up just walking off stage. And that feeling I had then, of absolute embarrassment on behald of my brothers and sisters, is how I felt every chapter as Casper had to see many of our absurd behaviors. I only hope that we as God’s people can become more like Him, and less like culture, and that Casper will not fault Jesus for some of things his followers have chosen to do in His name. Thanks for the great book!!!
Comment by: Robert Booth
15 05/4/07 11:45 AM | Comment Link |Great book! Thanks so much for taking the time to write such thought-provoking material. Well done.
Comment by: Donna Davis
16 05/7/07 6:42 PM | Comment Link |Hello Matt & Jim,
Where do I begin? Grew up in church. Family owns a Christian Bookstore…which is where I now work. This is how I also came upon your book.
As a single mom of two teenagers, I experienced such dismay of “church” that I decided two years ago to drop out of church altogether. It bothered me because I love God and Jesus in my heart and soul, but hated myself when I sat in church. It became a chore to go because I sat in a pew ticking off the minutes until I could get out. I looked around and judged (yes, judged) the people around me and found I didn’t like them very much. I then had to reflect inward and honestly admit I was perhaps one of the biggest hypocrites there. There was nothing that appeared “real” to me and that sickened me. I talked to God about how I felt about church, myself and the whole “organization” in general. I did make a deal with God that if a church came into the area with a Donald Miller (yes, I loved Blue Like Jazz) realness feel to it..that I’d at least give it a try, but no promises. (Didn’t feel right lying to God.) I found one shortly after and to my surprise (actually shock) we all actually liked it and are still active a year later. Too long of a story on that one, but I think you would both enjoy the freaky way that one fell into my lap. Now the church has grown from 70 people last February to 2,000+ in a year. Admittedly, I’m a little freaked by the growth. In the beginning it was incredible to watch a church, where at 44 I was old enough to be most people’s mom, experience such growth. Now I see things happening through the eye’s of Matt and it scares me. (Actually, I think this fear was what drew me to your book.) I wanted a second opinion as to how it may look to a visitor. OK, enough about me.
Now to your book, it was amazing to see how you guys had the guts to write the truth and name the names of some pretty powerful churches/pastors. I SALUTE YOU BOTH FOR YOUR WORK!!!! How incredibly real and refreshing!!! It has now become the book of choice that I recommend to my staff, small group, and any customer who cares what I may like. I literally had a hard time putting it down and finished it in two days. Thanks Jim for not interfering with Casper’s viewpoints. I came away both inspired and actually kind of depressed (which surprised me). The depression was only to the extent that I agreed with so many of Matt’s comments…that saddens me. If you guys are ever in the Charlotte, NC area, I’d love to take you to church with me. I’d want the same candor I found in the book about my church. Even a step further, it would be interesting to know what you thought about our stores. I’d offer lunch, but then I’d pick your brains so much, you’d probably half to kill me or write another book! Just teasing!
Donna
Comment by: Matt Casper
17 05/8/07 2:23 PM | Comment Link |Wow, Donna… just wanted to say “thanks.” Your comments honor us both with their clarity, and by being so clearly heartfelt.
I will gladly go to church with you if I’m ever in the Charlotte, NC, area. And I’ll deliver candor as that’s all I’m capable of!
Thanks again…
Matt Casper
Comment by: Lisa
18 05/18/07 7:39 PM | Comment Link |Jim and Matt,
I haven’t read your book yet, but just heard you on Openline. I found your research and opinions very interesting. I became a born-again believer in Jesus about 34 yrs. ago after being raised in a spiritually-dead mainline denominational church. I had a dramatic encounter with Jesus and He totally changed my life. I then began to attend evangelical churches, but eventually things seemed to be changing. Music and entertainment began overtaking the preaching of the Bible, as those attracted many people to attend the church. New “preaching” messages were meant to make people feel good and comfortable instead of convicting them of their sin and showing that Jesus can set us free from that sin.
I left those type churches and found a wonderful church - a conservative Amish-Mennonite church where obedience to God’s Word and living out our faith are most important. We see church as a time where Christians study the Word, worship God, and are refreshed for the next week. No entertainment provided - we sing hymns accapela. We kneel to pray. No decorations in the sanctuary. No church houses seat more than 200 people. If more than that join, we split and some move away to start a new church in a different community. We dress modestly and even sit modestly in service - men on one side with women on the other. Our ministers are chosen by lot from the lay members and are not paid. Children sit in church with parents and are taught to sit quietly. We all work together as a group to help one another and our neighbors - we hold “frolics” to do work for each other.
I would like to invite both of you to visit one of our churches and see how you would rate them. You will be warmly welcomed and probably everyone in the church would want to talk with you before you would leave - we actually stay about 30 min. after the service just to talk to each other. And we often have people over for Sunday dinner after service, so you might be forced to eat some delicious Amish cooking too! :-)
I look foward to reading the book. Another minister who has serious concerns with the Seeker-Friendly-Mega-Churches is Dave Hunt of The Berean Call ministry.
Lisa
Comment by: Florence Osborne Snow
19 05/20/07 4:04 PM | Comment Link |Dear Jim,
The Bridge sounded like a great place to hang out! And 10 atheists besides Matt in attendance - I like that…… Too bad it’s in Portland, not Seattle!
I wonder about one thing. You didn’t seem to address, in your comments focusing on atheist/Christian dialog and “certainty” versus “faith/hope,” on something that must actually be as core for you personally as it is for me: the presence of the Lord with us NOW, and what that means to us as Christians. And I went around and around the block long enough before finding the way to receive His companionship and help, as I am sure you did, that I do know the difference. (Among other things, that means I really don’t think about God in terms of only faith and hope.) However, I will have to add that I have not found that this cornerstone “witness” that I do really have seems to speak to the nonbelievers (or, in another context, believers) I dialog with! I don’t know precisely why that is, possibly because people’s needs are so individually unique and, of course, much more “present” to them than anyone else’s experience, but……..
Do you want a critique? If not, ignore the following. I feel a need to express it but that doesn’t mean you have to read it!
1. Probably the main thing I wished for more of in the book was variation in emotional tone. (Perhaps I notice this so dramatically because I am female!) Along the same line, it seemed to me that a lot of what makes your personal communication style unique was weeded out. I didn’t like that!
2. I would also have enjoyed hearing a bit more of your conversations with Matt. (You alluded to some of those in passing, but….) In other words, not focusing so carefully on the church visits, but getting more into some general atheist/Christian dialog. (A future book, I hope!) And, in the same vein, I would have liked very much to hear more from Matt in his own voice, i.e., written by him in the first person, although it sounded like you all did a good job of reporting his take on things, which is pretty interesting. I found Matt very engaging……
Thanks for listening. I hope you are having a great time these days. Blessing always…….
Florence
Comment by: Dan
20 05/23/07 7:53 AM | Comment Link |The book is a good read. It acknowledges all the little things that I noticed when I first started going to church. The point is well made in that as long as we are inviting people to Sunday morning services we need to have that in mind. Matt you are correct in asking for a call to action. The message of the Kingdom of Heaven has been lost. It is so much more than a get out of Hell free card. People really do need to read this book. I agree with the whole of it.
I do have one question for you thought I would like to see you be more “real” about the bible if you think that it is garbage stick to that. Don’t turn around on one hand say it is invalid and then use it for a defense of your position.
I know you guys talk about hope and faith and the difference between that and certainty. However in less than six years I have seen way to many things to say that it is more than just a strong hunch. I am okay with saying that Jesus is God and that I am as confident in that as I am in gravity.
My question is what is it really about someones confidence like this that bothers you. Are you still looking for the proof yourself?
One more thing I would like to point out is that Jesus regularly challenged peoples thinking he was and is okay with that. So my goal is not to slam you personally Matt but to challenge your thinking, after all that makes for the best conversations. It allows the whole person to engage in the conversation.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
21 05/23/07 10:26 PM | Comment Link |I can’t speak for Matt but I can say the only thing that bothers me about “certainty” is when Christians insist on replacing faith with it. When that happens we rob the gospel of the mystery and beauty and turn it into some kind of weird science project. I think we have played into the hands of our idelogical enemies when we do that and have replaced trust with religion.
Comment by: Dan
22 05/24/07 3:46 PM | Comment Link |That makes no sense. We are not talking about Y@hovah from the Torah, whom no one touched or saw. We are talking about Yeshua who even “secular” history and the Quran say lived on the earth. We are talking about the Living God coming in human form. living among us. If we can not accept the bible as a valid history book simple because “men” wrote it than there is not a book on this earth that we can accept.
I’m sure you have done the word studies, about what the apostle’s wrote about our hope. How the Holy Spirit is the seal of that hope. How it refers more to the day of judgment, not about whether Jesus is alive.
The hope is that on the day of judgment we will not be found lacking. That we will have done the will of the Heavenly Father. The hope is the full adoption into the Family of God.
If our hope is only on whether or not Jesus is real; then it is no wonder that we can’t get Christians to do the will of God.
I know its not nice and it is not PC to stay that one is right and one is wrong. The reality is that there is not one form of thinking that says every way is right. For the simple fact that everyone is trying to get other people to see it their way. One way scares us. So does absolute truth. The reality is the majority of the human population is scared of truth, because they might be wrong.
To say that someone is wrong in the way they think and act is not a hate crime. If I say something is wrong it does not mean that I hate them. This is the worst thinking that has crept into America.
I don’t hate people who think differently. I pray that we can get pass this lie and be allowed to have a truly free conversation.
Comment by: Matt
23 06/2/07 1:25 AM | Comment Link |Interesting concept and very interesting book. As many people have said very refreshing. But the question (for me at least) remains.
Will anything actually change?
I think it’s very obvious (and has been for a long time) that the way we do church isn’t as Jesus intended it. But as ever, nothing changes.
I’m from New Zealand and I can see churches here becoming more and more ‘Americanised’ i.e. bigger and more commercial. Maybe we should be returning to home churches? Who knows.
Comment by: Gene Williams
24 06/8/07 8:03 AM | Comment Link |I’m a Believer. Most would say that I am an Evangelical Conservative, but not ulta-conservative. I find it easy to fellowship with those who are like-minded but not necessarily of the same worship style or mode.
I found the book extremely interesting and yet, felt throughout my reading of the book that it was very much about what is becoming all to familiar … It’s not about God, it’s about me and my pfeferences … in other words, What’s in it for me? Let’s get back to the basic … It’s about God! Shouldn’t we go to church to worship God? My answer to this rhetorical question is a resounding, Yes!
Another thought that struck me as the diversity of “church styles” was brought up from time-to-time, Are church splits always wrong? I don’t think so. Each once has to be evaluated on it’s own dynamics.
Interestingly, I found myself saying from time-to-time and in many instances that my thoughts and/or evaluations were very similiar to Casper’s. That’s scary!
Comment by: Matt Casper
25 06/12/07 12:22 PM | Comment Link |I got into what I think about “leap of faith” becoming a “a leap of fact” (i.e., certainty) on the blog. Let me know what you think!
Thanks,
Comment by: Don Berry-Graham
26 06/13/07 1:13 PM | Comment Link |I have been a believer since I was 12 but came out of a very abusive home and right into the church community or culture. I still don’t get half of the stuff that we do and say. I am the pastor of a church. Church is beyond anything that I could have imagined. For many years I tried to fit into the culture then gave up. This book is great because it is one more voice saying what I have been saying for 40 years. We are making it required reading for every church leader we have. I expect them to read this in a week. To me it is long overdue. Thanks
Comment by: Richard Marks, PhD
27 06/15/07 5:23 PM | Comment Link |Matt and Jim,
I served on staff at a MEGA church (they boast 28000 members but only run arond 5K in sunday school). I served as the head of the family ministries and went there with the belief that what I was to do was to take ministries to help serve marriages and families in the community. I got involved with organizations such as MAD DADS and reached out and assisted other denominational churches and worked with the local Catholic Diocese. I was impugned for this work and was eventually told that I was in competition with the pastor for popularity. The reason for this is because this church was totally focused on itself, its buildings and its image. I was only interested in meeting needs of broken marriages and families regardless of whether they were our members or not. I was even asked many times by the senior leadership as to how many “salvations” I could expect from the ministry programs or events I hosted. Why does everything have to be about “winning” someone and not simply about serving and showing our Father’s love through relationship.
Your book and observations are “right on.” I have loved reading it and will give copies away and direct many people to it.
Matt, I have grown to respect you for your candidness and your ability to stand up to our traditional ways that have little meaning to the culture.
Blessings to you both
Rick
Comment by: Helen
28 06/17/07 7:11 AM | Comment Link |Rick, thanks for your comment. I see you have your own marriage ministry now - what a great way to resolve the problem of not being able to minister the way you wanted to at the megachurch.
In view of your thoughts on evangelism, you might be interested to read this - it outlines Jim’s approach to evangelism, which he calls ‘doable evangelism’; and when people are doing it he calls that an ‘ordinary attempt’ [to connect with other people through kindness and service, since that's what Jesus would do].
Comment by: Mark Juane
29 06/17/07 8:20 PM | Comment Link |Jim and Matt, thank you so much for doing the book. I didn’t even know that you were doing this project when I did something similar last year with about half a dozen churches in my city. I was shocked, surprised, and appalled at what I experienced.
Background: I am a church planter from the Philippines who just moved to Ottawa (Canada) to plant churches. I visited several churches in the city during the early half of last year asking 3 questions:
1. Who is Jesus to these people?
2. What is the gospel?
3. What is their mission in this city?
I logged my observations on my blog without mentioning any names of churches or individuals. I got flack from one church whose pastors recognized their church in my description! Why are so many churches so afraid of even constructive criticism?
Matt, I appreciate all the things you mentioned in the book. You confirmed many of the things that I have been observing in the megachurches (I’m not anti-megachurch but for looking at it honestly without being starstruck.) Unfortunately, the same things are occuring in medium sized “wanna-be-mega” churches too. It’s sad.
Jim and Matt, keep raising the flag and challenging us. It’s much appreciated.
I think it would be interesting to see if what you observed in the USAmerican churches is reflected in the Canadian churches.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
30 06/17/07 10:21 PM | Comment Link |Since you already got flack why not send us your blog link along with the names of the churches and pastors names and we will post it on CR as a featured review?
Why are we afraid to be critiqued if we say we’re “obeying the Lord”(a phrase a I frequently hear used (any connection to raising funds?). The Lord will protect those who obey him why be afraid of what others think or say - particulalry those of use without a voice or influence.
Send us your link and thank you for working to Free Jesus from Religion.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
31 06/17/07 11:15 PM | Comment Link |Richard
I have some follow up questions for you regarding some of your commnents above
For the sake of the uninitiated can you explain what the extreme difference in “counting” suggests/implies or reveals about life inside a mega church?
Impugned for what work? Working with Non Christian groups? Catholics? What exactly did you do that was wrong and did you know you might get taken to task for this while you were doing it?
Why is this controversial?
Where did Jesus tell us to serve those only who will follow us or believe in him? Did they not read Matthew 25?
Richard, what you describe is pretty standard way of measuring success in evangelical churches - (You know… The 3 Bs - Buildings, Budgets and Butts in Seats)did you not know about this way of measuring when you took a staff position? Did you go through some personal shift that altered how you “counted” success?
Tell us more about that journey
Comment by: Helen
32 06/18/07 5:01 AM | Comment Link |Thanks for your comment, Mark. One of the reasons we set up this site is to encourage constructive dialog about churches. We would like to see churches encouraging it too, in order to help them do what they do better. It would be great if feedback was welcomed, not feared, as a means to help churches improve. I’m sure some churches welcome it already. We’d like to see even more of that.
If you get Maclean’s (Canadian news magazine) keep an eye out for an article about Jim and Casper. It’s already online but we don’t think it ran in the print version yet.
Edited to add: I just saw Jim’s comment to you. We’d love to have your ratings on here, by church. Go here to enter each rating. We can feature ratings on our ChurchRater home page, at our discretion.
Comment by: Mark Juane
33 06/18/07 3:46 PM | Comment Link |“Free Jesus From Religion.” I LOVE IT!
Thanks for the encouragement, Jim and Helen. I’ll be sending in my church ratings soon. They date back to May 2006…hope that’s ok? As far as I know, nothing much has really changed for any of the churches I visited.
Helen, I checked the link to McLean’s. It’s basically a review of the book. I’ll keep my eyes and ears open for anything relevant to the condition of Canadian churches.
One thing that concerns me so much that Matt brought up in the book (when they visited Joel Osteen’s church), is that it seems that most preaching is mostly of the motivational, self-help type that really promotes a pull-yourself-up-by-your-own-bootstraps kind of religion. You know, the “if-you-obey-this-principle-God-will-make-your-dreams-come-true” thing. No wonder 9 out 10 Canadians don’t go to church! We’re not really offering them anything different than what they can get even better from Oprah!
Comment by: Helen
34 06/19/07 9:26 AM | Comment Link |Thanks Mark - it’s fine if ratings date back to then. If you want you can note “date visited” in your text comments.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
35 06/19/07 5:31 PM | Comment Link |You’re good at this \send us your reviews - age means nothing
Free Jesus From Religion
Comment by: Mark Juane
36 06/19/07 8:02 PM | Comment Link |I’ve been trying to post my reviews but there seems to be a problem. It won’t post for some reason. Do you think the programming is allergic to my Canadian postal code or something?
Comment by: Helen
37 06/20/07 6:31 AM | Comment Link |Mark, sorry about that. I don’t think it cares about postcode - I think it must be something else. You do have to get the anti-spam question right (current answer: Jim).
This reminds me we haven’t made it easy/obvious how to submit international ratings - that needs to be on our ‘to do’ list.
Can you send me a printscreen of what it rejects and I will find out what it doesn’t like? My e-mail address is on the CatE contact form
Comment by: Mark Juane
38 06/20/07 1:29 PM | Comment Link |Helen, I figured it out. The problem was with Jim’s name for the spam guard. I had out his full name when it only wants his first name.
Anyways, as you can see, I’ve posted my reviews. Feel free to edit it if necessary.
They’re taken from a blog I used to keep at http://www.markjuane.blogspot.com.
Cheers!
Comment by: Mark Juane
39 06/20/07 1:43 PM | Comment Link |Helen,
Oops! I entered my name and address where it should be the churches’. Please remove that if you can. Thanks…and sorry about that!
Comment by: Helen
40 06/21/07 3:20 AM | Comment Link |Thanks Mark! I will edit them like you requested. I tried, but evidently I need help from the programmer.
Comment by: Vanessa
41 06/22/07 8:05 PM | Comment Link |hi guys,
just started and finished the book on a 4 hour flight home from willow’s annual arts conference. i don’t think i’ve ever highlighted a book so much. every single page has something yellow-fied.
i’ve ordered a copy for everyone on my creative planning / programming team. i told my pastor what i’ll tell you: i don’t think i’ve read a more relevant book for church staff, leaders, worship leaders, programmers, and whoever else puts forth a ton of energy, heart and soul in “church work” every week.
jim thanks for having the guts [and level of exasperation] to begin paying people to tell you what they think. pure genius. i’m still shaking my head about how simple the concept is.
*side note: 2 weeks before i read the book i visited a small house church where a friend was giving his personal testimony. this church meets in a garage. i walked in to see rows of chairs set up theater style all facing forward. up front was a couple cool lights, some insence, and would you believe it… a screen! the slides were being controlled by someone in the back with a remote. i felt like i was in a mini-version of any other church. they might as well have raised a truss and had some moving lights. i mean, they had the whole world at their fingertips to make this garage into something that looked and felt like who they were as a community, but they chose to revert to all they knew of what “real church” is. frankly, it was asinine to have a screen with projected lyrics for 20 ppl. and it was even more ridiculous that i was supposed to be standing during worship. what a cool intimate time they missed out on by not bringing in some rugs, bean bags, whatever and making the garage make sense.
so while reading the book i realized - we just all do the same thing! which is kind of comical at a high level, but a big bummer when i realize i’m guilty of it too. every church thinks they’re different - but casper basically saw the same stuff over and over. the only thing that differentiated any of them was nothing to do with programming, but something much closer to the core of mission.
i admit - i’ve had to ask myself: could i be squelching the uniqueness of my church by forcing us into some church mold of big sound boards, live video feed, and other technical toys? I wonder several times a week if what i’m programming isn’t hindering people spiritually more than it’s actually helping.
all this to say - thanks. your book is more than an easy and intriguing read. it is massively helpful to me.
Comment by: Richard \
42 06/25/07 3:43 PM | Comment Link |Jim, I have been traveling and not been able to get to your site to see if I have had any responses until today. I am currently in Denver at the annual Smartmarriages conference. A secular conference doing MORE about reaching families and couples than the church (my opinion of course)
I am here to answer your questions:
CHurches of this size (and most churches) do not clear their membership rolls and thus boast a HUGE membership. However, these churches actually COUNT their Sunday School attendance as their actual numbers of those involved. Thus, these churches are always trying to increase their Sunday School enrollment. This will usually help boost the worship service attendance. Of course, you will always have those who only attend the worship time and refuse to attend Sunday School.
I was impugned for working alongside nonfaith based groups as well as other Christian groups, i.e. helping the Catholic Diocese with Pre Cana, etc. These churches tend to focus on themselves and do not have time for anything but focusing on their members and getting them involved in the churches programs. At this church, PROGRAMS are the idols, not people. As a matter fact, one the the former pastors actually told us in a staff meeting that “people are numbers”. When people become numbers they cease to be human and become commodities.
It is controversial because thsi church only focused on itself. I was breaking an unwritten rule: focus on us and our members. You have too much to do here to focus outside of our walls.
The reality is that this church impacts our city very little and would never be noticed by anyone ( except of course the members) if it somehow disappeared. Doable Evangelism can be accomplished by simply helping ANY marriage and family in need of help simply because they need help. The pervading question to me was that if I was going to do something OUTSIDE of the church walls, I needed to be able to give an estimate of how many people will get saved! Why cant we just do something for someone just because we care and not as a motive to “get them.”
Jim, I have never been one that believed our motive should be to
get someone converted. if that is our motive the tendency is to not see them as persons with thoughts, feelings and a life story, but as someone to GET! A commodity! Once we get them we have to get another.
I was never raised in the church as a youth. My fathers side of family is jewish, mothers side historically is from Lebabon and Islamic, I was baptised catholic as infant, raised a uniterian, and came to know Christ as Savior at age 17. Our goal is not to build Churches ( as we know them ) but to build the Kingdom of God. Churches are a help in this process but not the only way.
Thanks for your continued work. I am telling ALL i come in contact with in pastoral settings about the book.
Blessings
Rick
Comment by: Richard
43 06/25/07 3:47 PM | Comment Link |I should also say that our mission as Christians is to love people, build healthy relationships with them, and out of that relationship we can earn the right to share our hope and faith. This does not mean that if the person rejects our faith we stop being friends.
Blessings
Rick
Comment by: Matt Casper
44 06/27/07 7:03 PM | Comment Link |Hi Vanessa,
Thank you so much for your compliments on our work!
The question you posit about “squelching the uniqueness” of your church means a lot to me personally. It sounds that, like me, you see many people in church (and maybe elsewhere?) equating “unique” and “special” with bigger spectacles…
And that usually tends to put emphasis on appearance over substance, which is—in my opinion—one of our collective shortcomings. In church, out, throughout our society.
The churches I enjoyed most didn’t dazzle my eyes, but they sure grabbed a hold of my ears.
Thanks again for your wonderful words to us and about our book…
Matt
Comment by: Ken Knott
45 06/28/07 8:36 AM | Comment Link |I want to say how refreshing it is to hear open and honest talk about church. I agree, much of what the church community says does not match with what Jesus taught. Thank you!
The only thing that surprised me was Casper’s comment after visiting Jason’s House, “I did entertain the notion of joining this church as ‘the nonbeliever.’ the guy who’s just helping people. But then I realized that I am way too preoccupied, busy, and/or lazy to start really helping others.” pg. 85
I don’t believe helping others is just a Christian thing! People should make the effort to help others because we are part of a bigger community, “The Human Race”. Just being honest, I thought is was a bit hypocritical to blast Christians for not helping others and then turn around and say, “I am too lazy to help others.”
Ken
Comment by: Matt Casper
46 06/28/07 9:37 AM | Comment Link |Hi Ken…
Thank you very much for reading and for posting! Dialog is what we’re after, and dialog is what you’ve given us!
So far as this goes: “[it's] a bit hypocritical to blast Christians for not helping others and then turn around and say, ‘I am too lazy to help others.’”
I understand where you’re coming from, but I’m not sure hypocritical is the word. The reason I think I can say that without any kind of hypocrisy is because I am not a follower of Jesus, and therefore don’t have that standard to maintain.
To me, the hypocrisy is when someone calls themselves a Christian and ignores the plights of the less fortunate… or condones war in any form… or preaches hate against anyone… or dedicates their lives to making money… or supports or believes ANYTHING Jesus would not have condoned: materialism, militarism, imperialism, and on and on and on.
I think being a true follower of Jesus must be incredibly difficult in a country like mine, where “greed is good” and the interests of money trump the interests of people most every time…
Hence when I meet people like Jason or people like the folks at Lanwdale, I think, “I’m probably too lazy to be a Christian.”
Comment by: Ken Knott
47 06/28/07 2:18 PM | Comment Link |Hi Casper,
You’re right, being a consistent follower of Christ is hard. But you don’t have to be a Christian to, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” Jesus & Casper (pg 154)
Thanks for responding.
Comment by: Helen
48 06/28/07 7:41 PM | Comment Link |Ken, I agree that you don’t have to be a Christian to ‘do unto others as you would have them to unto you’. But if you aren’t a Christian, you don’t have to, do you? It’s up to you.
Whereas if you say you are a Christian people will expect you to be following Jesus’ teachings such as ‘do unto others as you would have them do unto you’.
Ken, wiht all due respect, why would you expect atheists to follow Jesus’ teachings?
Comment by: Ken
49 06/28/07 9:41 PM | Comment Link |Hey Helen, thanks for responding.
If Casper doesn’t have the standard of doing unto others, then no it’s not hypocritical. But if he does, regardless if Jesus said it or anyone else, then saying he’s too busy or lazy is a contradiction.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
50 06/29/07 3:22 PM | Comment Link |I think this is all semantics
IMO Casper is simply saying that when Cs are at their best(in his opinion but certainly not the opinion of the majority of Evangelical theologians who are fixated on the transaction of the cross) Then they will be attempting to be living by the Great Commandment Part B of which says love your neighbor as you love yourself.
Of course one doesnt have to be a C to follow that as we all know - there are plenty of Non Cs who put Cs to shame using this as our standard But Casper is right to hold our feet to the fire of Jesus words regardless of whether or not he chooses to follow them or cares about following him.
He is in no way being hypocritical when he is being paid to simply remind us to practice what we preach
Comment by: Richard
51 06/30/07 2:19 PM | Comment Link |Jim,
Richard Marks, Phd here. Did you get my reply to your follow up questions for me? Just checking.
Rick
Comment by: Jim Henderson
52 07/7/07 6:42 PM | Comment Link |Richard
Yes our friend Helen alerted me to them and I really appreciate all you have to say.
I agree and I think it is embarassingly easy to establish that this was Jesus approach as well.
We have become victims of beliefism - the worship of right beliefs instead of right actions
You migh enjoy seeing the DVD The Big Kahuna.It expresses how when ever we steer the conversation we are selling something.
Stay in touch. Hope you can come to Off The Map Live in Novemeber
Comment by: Ernie Carasco
53 07/8/07 1:36 PM | Comment Link |I just finished reading Jim & Casper Go to Church by Jim Henderson & Matt Casper, and I was less than impressed. Jim, an ex-Pentecostal pastor, hires (Matt) Casper, a professing atheist, to visit 12 churches of various denominations (or non-denominations) and give an honest evaluation of the “worship” services conducted there.
Without going into contextual detail, the book was based on a faulty premise, i.e., that churches should cater to the likes and dislikes, approval or disapproval of those outside of the church, sometimes called “seekers.” Jim admits that he felt somewhat unsuccessful as a pastor because he could not get outsiders to come to his church, and so he resorted to hiring outsiders to come and give an honest evaluation of what went on in the service. There are several problems with Jim’s approach.
First of all, Jim’s failure is in thinking that church (worship) services should be designed to be appealing to the “un-churched.” This could not be further from the truth. Worship is for “believers,” not for unbelievers, and the audience is not, and should never be the congregation, but rather God. Worship is intended as an offering to God, and not as entertainment for the crowd. (Granted, worship, for the believer, should be a manner of life-conduct and not reserved only for “corporate” worship.) One cannot expect unbelievers, like Casper, to get anything out of such as service no matter how it is packaged. The reason for this is that “true” believers have the indwelling Holy Spirit that makes worship relevant to them. I’m surprised that Jim, a Pentecostal preacher, is apparently unaware of this fact.
Secondly, Casper wanted to see actions backing up the Christian message. That’s fair, however, one, especially an unbeliever, will not get a good sense of what a church does by attending one service (out of context). So his evaluation is baseless. Casper wants to see social action, from a church, but (Jim) that is not the primary function of the church, and Casper in his humanism is erred in his expectation. (At this point I would want to know how many hospitals have been started by atheists? How many universities have been founded by atheists? How many atheists have built orphanages (that actually care for children)?). Social action is not the primary mandate of the church. The primary function of the church is to “make disciples” (Matthew 28:18-20; Acts 1:8).
Thirdly, Jim seems to think that catering to the whims of a fickle world’s need for entertainment will somehow win “the missing” (A.K.A. “the lost”). Again, I am surprised that a Pentecostal preacher would discount the work of the Holy Spirit. Salvation is the work of the Holy Spirit; we (the church) are merely agents. Casper never failed in having something critical to say of every single church he visited. Reason: the Holy Spirit evidently has not touched his heart or if He has, Casper has chosen not to respond, and so, his assessment can only be based on a secular, humanist perspective. The format of a worship service has nothing to do with the conversion of a human heart. People have been “saved” the very first time they set foot in a church. Some have been saved through the witness of a friend. Others come to Christ after many, many years of being exposed to the Gospel. It has nothing to do with how a church packages the message, it’s all God.
I would recommend this book, but not as an idea book on how to “do church.”
Comment by: Matt Casper
54 07/9/07 7:27 PM | Comment Link |Hello Ernie! And thank you for reading and posting. That said…
I can’t say it feels good to hear you were less than impressed… depends on how much less, more or less. I thank you for getting our book nonetheless. (In rhythm, no less!)
Some of your questions and comments are perfectly pointed:
* ‘an unbeliever, will not get a good sense of what a church does by attending one service’
* ‘Social action is not the primary mandate of the church. The primary function of the church is to make disciples’
* ‘Worship is for believers, not for unbelievers’
I couldn’t agree with you more!
But one factual error I’d like to correct. You said, ‘Casper never failed in having something critical to say of every single church he visited.’ That’s not true.
I enjoyed the churches who preached what they practiced (yes, preached what they practiced), who followed and acted on the examples set by Christ–who you also claim to worship–and who didn’t take the narrow way out.
Comment by: Helen
55 07/11/07 3:50 PM | Comment Link |Matt has also posted a response to Ernie in the new blog entry
Burned by Ernie
And I just posted an excerpt from Ernie comments on the eBay atheist blog:
How many hospitals have atheists founded?
Comment by: How many hospitals have atheists founded? | Ebay Selling Tips
56 07/11/07 10:57 PM | Comment Link |[...] is an excerpt from comments about Jim and Casper go to church posted on our Church Rater blog by Ernie Carrasco: Casper wants to see social action, from a church, but (Jim) that is not the [...]
Comment by: Ron Willard
57 07/12/07 7:53 PM | Comment Link |Gentlemen: I finished reading your book, Jim & Casper Go To Church last night. Before I completed reading it, I ordered two more copies one of which I intend to give to my pastor. I would have loaned him mine but I enjoy writing and making notes in the margins and I didn’t want my jottings to influence or detract his concentration from your book. He will have his own copy.
Next month I will be 73. I was baptized a Baptist at 12, became a Presbyterian “out of convenience” at the age of 13 because my mom bought a home next door to the Presbyterian church in Hawthorne, California; that made if very convenient to attend
What I wanted to share with the two of you is off on a tangent from discussing the churchs “y’all” visited. I started teaching adult Bible Sunday school in 1968 while stationed at the United States Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs, Colorado. In my class were two professors and three instructors who taught the Academy cadets. I am not a college graduate! A great challenge awaited me.
In 1971 I was transferred to Wilford Hall USAF Medical Center at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas. My family and I joined a nearby Presbyterian church. Shortly after joining, I was invited to resume teaching adult Bible Sunday school. In l986 I moved to a small hill country town called Boerne and joined St. Mark Presbyterian Church. In 1987 I was invited again to teach the adult Bible Sunday school class. I continued to teach that class for the next 18 years (because of illness, I retired from teaching June of 2005). All together, I taught adult Bible Sunday school for about 33 years.
One of the first classes I taught (lead) at the Air Force Academy was from the Old Testament. During that same time period I was taking a night college course (taught by an outstanding Academy professor)on ancient Egyptian history. It dawned on me that the Sunday school teaching guide and student quarterly from which we were studying in the Old Testament contained similar academic information I was studying at night. That’s when the thought first struck me - I have to make our Sunday school class more than a Biblical history lesson. After concentrating and praying about what I could do to make the Sunday school class more than a Bible history lesson - I started to ask the class attendees: “How can we make this lesson relevant to our lives today? What teachings from this lesson can we employ and include in our lives right now? What action can we take to make the Old Testament teachings alive and well in our world today? For instance, I thought about God calling Abraham. The Old Testament teaches Abraham responded in faith. Dictionarys define faith as a noun. But Abraham’s faith required him to take action. Abraham’s faith convinced me that there should be a Christian Dictionary in which faith is grammatically defined as a verb because almost every case of faith mentioned in the Bible is manifested in an action. In your book Mr. Casper kept asking “Where is the call to action?” He asked that same question over and over again.” After accepting the challenge teach - to make them more than a Bible history lesson, I decided to leave the last ten to fifteen minutes of Sunday school class time a time to let the class attendees share from what we studied, how we could incorpoate these teachings in our lives today. It was not only surprising but also refreshing to hear all the action ideas presented — and accepted as things we could do both individually and collectively as a small group.
What was it Jesus said to the lame man that was lowered from the ceiling by four of his friends? “Your faith has healed you. Now stand up and walk.” That lame man’s faith required him to take action.” Go back and examine all the miracles Jesus performed. In every instance the miracle required action on the part of the person being healed. The blind, the lame, the dead (Lazarus) had to take action to complete the miracle. Their faith required action. That, in part, was how I concluded all my adult Bible Sunday school classes — we concluded with calls for action. James points this out much more eloquently than I. You mentioned the 25th chapter of Matthew in your book - Jesus’ call to action.
Since I began my story about my teaching career starting with the Old Testament, I think it quite appropriate to end with the Old Testament: Micah 6:8 reads, “No, O people, the Lord has already told you what is good, and this is what he requires: to do what is right, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.” (NLT) A member of my class for the entire time I taught at St. Mark said he thinks every church should have this verse engraved over all the exit(s)of their sanctuaries as a constant reminder that as we depart from our worship services we are “required” to “act” in the world - to “demonstrate” our faith.
As a side note, since you mentioned Aimee Semple McPherson:
For your information I attended Aimee Semple McPherson’s church in downtown Los Angeles. For about three years in a row, my (divorced)mother of five children bundled all of us up and we rode from south central LA via city buses and streetcars in the wee early hours of Easter Sunday to downtown LA to Aimee Semple McPherson’s Easter Sunrise Service in which she put on a full stage play reenacting the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus the Christ. Even at the age of 8 or 9 I can vividly recall certain segments of her Easter Sunrise service.
Gentlemen: I really enjoyed your book. And Casper - you’re okay!
Shalom!
Ron Willard
A line in Bill Gaithers’ song “Because He lives” reads —
“Because He lives, I can face tomorrow.”
I seriously believe and put my faith in that line.
Comment by: Elizabeth Clark
58 07/23/07 4:52 AM | Comment Link |Greetings Jim and Matt … WOW!
Such a trite expression, but that was the first word which came to mind after reading your book! What a fresh and honest approach to looking at the American Church.
Bishop Wayne Neller, New Wine Ministries International, is asking his American pastors to read this book before our annual pastors conference this winter.
As a committed Christian, and being part of “The Church” for many years, I find I have allowed myself to become lulled into behaviors, cultural practices/beliefs, comfortable traditions … without realizing who I have become to outside observers; not so sure I am proud of what they might be seeing in me.
This book should be a “must read” for pastors and church leaders, or perhaps even required reading for all American Christians.
What a wake-up call you have sounded for us, Jim and Matt.
In February, I was part of a mission trip to India. It was life chaning for me, but not quite as I had suspected. I returned home more broken-hearted for the Church of America than for the struggling believers in India. They are the Persecuted Church, facing arrests and death, having little in the way of material possessions (using a car battery for one church’s sound system), and yet seem rich in faith, and hope, and joy, appreciative for GOD’s presence and daily provisions … all that good stuff :-).
Perhaps we (American Christians) simply need a mission trip and your book to nudge us back in place with where our LORD desires us to be.
Kudos! Job well done! I am sharing this book with everyone I know via email. Thank YOU for risking/daring to write such a telling and honest book.
Casper so powerfully said it best: “Action changes everything” (p.4). Less talk, more action, yes?
May each believer look inward, own what is needed to change, then just: go do … to help change a hurting world around us … beginning “next door” might be a good place to start.
Bless you both. Well done!
P.S. Yes, I like that idea of “apology”. I will look for ways to integrate this into my encounters and conversations with non-believers. I must own my own piece of what is wrong with “The Church” before I point fingers at another. This suggestion was powerful for me.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
59 07/28/07 10:44 AM | Comment Link |Elizabeth
Thank you for readig our book. I m happy that you have found it to be helpful.
I also love India and travel there to connect with the Christians and advocate for lower caste peoples. You might enjoy learning more about this issue
Comment by: Roger Mathis
60 08/8/07 11:13 PM | Comment Link |Gentlemen, thanks for the book!
I have a shortcoming in starting and finishing books, but this one was different.. I really finished it! ( my wife was impressed). This book was also different because I could see myself in Casper’s shoes,asking the same questions “why?”, and also in Jims shoes,trying to understand the relevance of American church today. I am a Christian, I accepted Christ at an early age(1st grade), and then sat in pews all through the rest of my youth. I got away from church, (not God) until I married. Then we searched out a church that fit us-how traditional, how predictable,it’s all we knew to do. Do what we have done in the past, because it’s comfortable, we didn’t search for a place we could make an impact (make a difference) we followed our traditions and found a “church body” that we felt comfortable with. In looking back we can see how God used all of those experiences to teach, grow and prepare us to do what He is calling us to now. The story of Jason’s house church resonated with us and we appreciated Capser’s openess about his experience there. God has us in that very place right now, we are doing “church” now, in our home—no memberships, no programs, agendas, just real relationships…..Jesus said “GO” not “come”. In our pursuit of finding the “perfect church” or the church “that fits us”, we(modern day Christians) have missed the mark of Jesus’ example “Go”….go next door to the drunken bachelor, (he needs a friend), go and help the widow rebuild her burned house, (she needs a home), go and learn the names of neighbors 3 doors down, they could use more friends. Comfort was an excuse, and complacency is where most of us are. Thank you for making me uncomfortable, and for helping me alter my attitude for the people around me.
Comment by: Stu
61 08/9/07 1:09 PM | Comment Link |My local library had this book. I am re-evaluating my entire approach to people–both those I think already believe in Christ, and those “whom Jesus misses most”. I plan to read more on this topic. I gave my pastor the book and have recommended to my son-in-law, who’s a youth pastor in Scotland.
Comment by: Mike
62 08/16/07 12:16 PM | Comment Link |I just finished the book and have little experience in befriending an Atheist. I loved the book and the perspectives that Casper shares simply for my exposure to his beliefs seen through his observations and the questions he raises.
I also really enjoy getting to visit churches from all over and was immediately drawn to this aspect of the book - sad that the tour did not include any churches outside of the USA. God is so much bigger than the United States (as wonderful a country this is).
My highest respect for Casper is built when he concludes with, “Be open-minded. Learning is the best thing that can happen to anyone.” What an amazing opportunity for both Jim and Casper to learn about one another.
Comment by: Erik
63 08/19/07 12:50 AM | Comment Link |I finished the book today. My wife is on the membership team (staff) at Saddleback and the book is required reading for her. She’s had it 2 weeks and just happened to bring it home a couple days ago. When she told me it had a section on Saddleback I was all over it. I love to read anything, positive or negative, on Saddleback. I often leave books at the halfway mark, but not this one. It was very interesting and eye-opening. I considered myself atheist from about ‘93-’96 (I’m 34)and agnostic before that, so I could relate somewhat to Casper, but at times I was pretty surprised at the observations and comments. I periodically think about what Jesus would want church to look like. Now I am really thinking intently about that. I believe the church is the body of believers, but there is the other church - the places where people go to “do church”. I don’t want to say much on this or what I believe at this point but I want to say thanks for doing the book and getting me to think more. I’d also like to bring up another thought I had regarding Caspers closing remarks. He says certainty is boring, closed off and against new information. Don’t atheists say, “there is no god” with certainty. If not and they rather say “i don’t know whether or not there is a god” then they would be agnostic. Is there really such thing as an atheist since it cannot be proven 100% that there is not a god?
Comment by: Matt Casper
64 08/23/07 9:21 PM | Comment Link |Hi Erik, and thank you so much for posting.
I am curious as to why our book is “required reading” for anyone on staff at Saddleback…? Curious, and flattered, too! Let me know more if you can: I’d be much obliged.
You’re right about the dictionary definition of atheist being at odds with my “dislike” of certainty (my quotes, there).
But you’ll see that in the beginning of the book, I describe myself as “currently an atheist,” because I know that my beliefs–like anyone’s–can change.
My father, who’s an atheist, also describes me as an agnostic. But I disagree with that take as well.
I think, basically, when it comes to what one believes about why we’re here, how it all happened, and what comes next, well, no one knows for sure.
We make our best bets and guesses based on the evidence our lives deliver to us.
And my best bet currently–based on my life’s experience–is that there is no God and no supernatural forces at work in our world or anywhere else.
But I still feel blessed.
Life and living is extraordinary. There are millions of possibilities in the universe, and somehow, the wheels turned in such a fashion here on earth that We Are Here.
I really feel that what separates me from Christians like my friends Jim and Jason is only that they believe those wheels were turned by a God, whereas I don’t have an answer as to why they turned.
Just living is my “why” and my blessing and what gives me joy. I believe that when I die, I die. But dying is the price for living, and living is worth the cost.
Anyway… went off on a tangent… hope you’re still reading. That’s what traveling with Jim and writing this book has done to me, though. Made me think CONSTANTLY about the big picture.
Alright, then. Thanks again for reading and maybe we can meet sometime up at Saddleback.
Matt
Comment by: Matt Casper
65 08/23/07 9:41 PM | Comment Link |This is a response to comment #60:
Hi Roger,
Thanks for reading, visiting, and writing!
Your reaction to our book is in tune with what I think most open minded folks with deeply held, lifelong beliefs would feel: challenged, or “uncomfortable,” as you put it.
I know Jim would say that’s the point of it, too. And–as anyone who has ever been my friend can attest to–making people uncomfortable is something I do rather well. :)
I also think anyone raised “in the church” (such as yourself) faces a set of challenges, a set you seem to have embraced with both arms.
Because it can’t be easy reconciling what one sees in some churches with the words of Jesus. That’s why Jason’s house, Imago Dei (in Portland, OR) and Lawndale (Chicago) had such an impact on me.
As I own a television, I couldn’t help but be pretty familiar with the “style” of the megas: a lot of money, a big show, often overtly political, etc. Thus, I had a pre-conceived notion about the hypocrisy of “the church.” I was prepared for–and received–a steady diet of “money for a new facility,” “defeating our enemies,” and “family values.”
So when I went churches (like Jason’s home church) where such things were not mentioned, where they talked about helping others and sacrifice, where the words of Jesus were the focus of the evening and fuel of the attendees’ lives… well, I couldn’t help but be affected.
As I am a non-believer in the god you worship, I am in no position to say so, but I hope that you continue your efforts with your church as it sounds like your heart is in the right place. In my opinion, whether or not one believes in gods is far less important than how one lives one’s life, and it sounds like you spending yours helping others.
And that something that should give you great, great comfort.
Thanks again,
Matt
Comment by: Allen Remley
66 08/25/07 7:27 PM | Comment Link |I just finished reading “Jim and Casper go to church” I could not put it down and could relate to a lot of the assessment in it. I am an ex-pastor who began to question a lot of the forms that we promote as church because I could not see it in the NT. Casper’s question is the right one! “Did Jesus asked you guys to do this?” I once heard the following: Christianity began in Jerusalem as a simple set of relationships, moved to Greece and became a philosophy, moved to Rome and became an institution, went to Europe and became a culture and came to America and became an enterprise. How far we have moved away from what Jesus intended. Casper’s frustration is obviously with the enterprises which is what a lot of the groups they visited have become. Maybe the Master should deal with us as he did the money changers in the temple. The visit to Jason’s house was the most refreshing pool in the whole book. It sounds like he and his friends have rediscovered the original intention.
Those who want to consider where all of these practices come from may want to read Frank Viola’s “ The Paganization of Christianity” which is available on Amazon.com. In it Viola traces where a lot of this foolishness comes from. You may not agree with it all but much is undeniable.
Thanks Jim for you bold move of putting this in print. It needs to be said.
Allen
Comment by: Richard "Rick"
67 08/31/07 8:05 PM | Comment Link |Hello again to all!
I have sent about 21 people this past three weeks to the book. I hope they get it and read it. All of these are in ministry, either institutional church or parachurch.
FBC JAX this past Wednesday taught everyone how to use the “evangicube.” It is a gimmick (my word) for evangelism. I find it interesting that the western church has to resort to gimmicks, etc. rather than teach people to be authentic, compassionate, caring, and to go live out a Kingdom heart in front of others. The first century church had no gimmicks and grew to about 20 million in the first 200 years. I refer everyone to a book called “The FOrgotten Ways” by ALan Hirsch. Discipleship is the key to successful evangelism: it begins when you meet someone, they accept Christ, and you keep on discipling them. The Church in China continues to grow with very few bibles, preachers, no buildings, no youth ministries, and it is outlawed. Hmmm? Maybe we in America should learn something from our China brothers and sisters.
My thoughts.
Rick
Comment by: dave
68 09/3/07 3:03 PM | Comment Link |Hey Guy’s
I bought your book a week ago and could not put it down. I re read it again this weekend and now feel compeled to post a comment. I thought it was a great read and I will recommend it to all my friends who find this sort of dialogue interesting. However I also had some problems with many of the comments and conclusions contained in the book. (I guess that is what makes it a good book). Maybe you can answer or clarify a couple of them for me.
Jim why did you do the project with just one athiest? It seems that out of your sincere desire to improve what we call church you would have used a wider sample, say a threesome of a committed beleiver, casual beleiver and non beleiver. It seems to me if we are going to improve what we call church we should do market research say the way a successful department store does. They research what the customers who actually come to their store think and use the research to improve the experiance of their customers so they will keep coming back and tell all of their friends what a great experiance they had and then they will want to come as well. Don’t get me wrong as a person who was “lost” until I was 35 years old, I am very sensitive to the unchurched and we should always be looking for bridges to build toward the people Jesus misses most. The way I finally ended up at church was that I kept hearing from a friend of all these cool things and good times he was having at church and with church people that I finally decided to check it out. This approach will only work if we develope churches that the people who actually go like, enjoy and aren’t embarrased by what happens on Sunday morning.
Matt you were consistantly dissapointed in the church for the lack of action behind the belief in the message of Jesus. This action takes place on on the other six days and 23 hours of the week. We gather together to hear the message of Jesus through a pastor and then spread out into our community and turn the message into action. Unfortunatly most christians don’t take the message personally and are not moved to take action. But the small percentage who take it personally have had a undeniable positive impact on the world we live in and demostrates the super natural power of God. In my own life before I met Jesus I was the guy who yelled out the car to the homeless “Get a job” Now in response to God’s grace I serve the homeless in our community. I used to think that anyone who committed a crime was a useless shred of human debris. Now that I have learned I am just as guilty as the guy behind bars and understand that all people are valuable to God I go to prison once a week and lead a bible study with inmates at a state prison. I never would have chosen to do any of this if I had not gone to a church and had my life changed when I personally met Jesus and was touched in a super natural way. Matt what is the athiest call to action for making the world a better place? What are some of the results of athiest social action?
Thanks for the book it has really provoked alot of thought and personal reflection on how I should function as a follower of Jesus.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
69 09/6/07 9:15 PM | Comment Link |Richard “rick”
Thanks for reccomending our book to 21 people - very kind of you
Comment by: Jim Henderson
70 09/6/07 9:22 PM | Comment Link |Dave
Thanks for reading our book twice. What prompted you to pick it up the first time? Did someone reccomend it? Why do you guys think people reccomend the book so much?
Anyway - I did not take moderate people with me because most of us ignore their viewpoints and I knew only an atheist would get Christians attention. So while your idea is fair, reasonable and makes sense- it doesnt sell books. This was not a research project it was a relationship project. I wanted to show what a relationship between two people with polar opposite views looks like. I want to say to Cs stop being so weird, arrogant and self righteous and afraid and just be normal.
Per your question to Matt - I will let him answer but I would say that he had no obilgation to make his view balanced or defend atheism (which he does almost none of in the book -can you imagine a C exercising that much restraint?) He was a hired gun - He was working for me telling me what he was seeing in real time. He owes no explanation for his atheism in my opinion- Matt?
Comment by: Matt Casper
71 09/10/07 8:47 PM | Comment Link |Hi Dave, Jim…
First Dave, thanks for reading. Your thoughts and comments are insightful and compelling.
I don’t know what the atheist call to action is. In my opinion, atheism is not a belief system with an organized structure or plan of action. It’s simply recognizing that there are no gods at work in our world.
(This makes the world no less wondrous, in my opinion. In fact, I am thinking of writing a book about how you can live a joyful life, full of wonder, without belief in any gods…but I digress.)
As I think atheism is not a codified belief system in the way Christianity and other major faiths are, it’s hard to “speak for the atheists.” There’s no meeting place, no contact list, no newsletter. So I can only speak for me.
And what I do to make the world a better place is treat others the way I’d like to be treated—with as much respect and kindness as I can muster. Granted, this doesn’t put food in the bellies of the homeless, but it’s in the right direction.
Thanks again for reading, visiting, and writing… I look forward to hearing more from you!
Matt
Comment by: Matt Ehresman
72 09/16/07 9:49 PM | Comment Link |Hey guys,
Thanks so much for writing the book. I enjoyed your writing style and feel like I learned a lot. Thanks for taking the time to find my blog too, Matt. I appreciate your comments and hope I can get plugged in to people like you guys. Keep up the good work!
Comment by: Heather D. Griffiths
73 09/21/07 3:11 PM | Comment Link |I must say this is one of the best books I have ever read! Thank you Casper for sharing and hopefully enlightening Christians. I can actually remember when I was not a Christian having some of the very same thoughts Casper had. Actually, even as a Christian I have had many of the same thoughts. Christians need an awakening that in the words of Casting Crowns, “We are the body”, and if we are, why aren’t are hands reaching, why aren’t our hands healing, etc. We have to get out of the comfort zone and get out to the people in love, just as Christ loves us, no matter if we are deserving or not. We are too judgemental and try to pick and choose who is “worthy”. Truth is- none of us are, but thankfully we have a Saviour that paid the price for us.
Thank you Jim for having the insight and following God’s guidance to research and write this book. I think it should be required reading for every pastor and every Christian.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
74 09/26/07 8:58 PM | Comment Link |Heather
Thanks
How did you bump into our book?
Who reccomended it to you?
Comment by: Infant Car Seats
75 09/28/07 7:11 PM | Comment Link |What\’s a web surfer to do? I was going along, searching for some info on Infant Car Seats, and saw a link here. You can bet I\’ll be bookmarking this site TODAY (Friday). Great post!
Comment by: Jim Henderson
76 09/30/07 8:08 AM | Comment Link |Dear Infant Car Seats
Maybe it was providential and maybe it was accidental. Either way it is very funny. Welcome and why do you like our site?
Comment by: Shawn Bashor
77 10/4/07 6:38 PM | Comment Link |I had been in and out of church (mostly in) my whole life. The out times, up until a few years ago, had to do with drugs.
I have not “attended a church” for the last 11 months. I “stop going to church” and started this journey I am on as to how to be more like Jesus. I lost a friend, who’s an atheist, who was going through brest cancer, with a double mastectomy, because she ended up getting sick of me trying to use her situation as a scare tactic to get her to “go to church with me.” Call evangelism, call it what you will, looking back I was using it as a scare tactic.
I am half way through the book (I started it in court on Tuesday) and am wondering if I am going to see something other than this statement, “But all we ever asked is how does what …… does in his church business support the words and deeds of Jesus Christ, who …. leverages to make millions of dollars…” by Casper. I can say from my experience I have yet to find that in a “church.”
I would just like to say thank you to Casper for helping me grow in my relationship and understanding of who Jesus is to me.
Comment by: Matt Casper
78 10/6/07 8:24 PM | Comment Link |Thanks for visiting, Shawn. Your honesty about your own evangelism is inspiring to me, personally.
It’s brave to recognize this: “Call evangelism, call it what you will, looking back I was using it as a scare tactic.”
Making mistakes is part of the journey. But recognizing mistakes and learning from them… well, those are often the biggest steps in the journeys.
Thanks again for visiting…
Matt Casper
Comment by: Jim Henderson
79 10/8/07 5:06 PM | Comment Link |Shawn
Hope you are doing well
Comment by: Shawn Bashor
80 10/12/07 6:40 PM | Comment Link |I am doing quite well Jim, thanks for the concern.
I have not finished the book yet, it has been a hectic week.
Although I did get through the chapter from Jason’s house. My friend Mike B. is friends with Jason. I did not know this until he came up stairs (he is a close friend and close landlord) to give me my mail and saw the book sitting there. He chuckled then told me a little about Casper’s band.
Anyway all that said, Casper’s percetion of what Jason and that community of believers does is exactly what I like friends to see when I bring them to a time of fellowship. I guess the difference between theirs and ours is location. We reach out to suburbia here in Jupiter Florida.
All that said, my view of the church has been rocked over the last year and I try to just love people now for who they are.
I can compare it to this, often times in “church training,” we are taught to just get them in the door. My brother was part of AMWAY for a few years, they seem to do the same thing. Eventually you start looking at every relationship as a prospect.
I found I would even try and get my christian friends to come to “my church” because the teaching is deeper or whatever reason I could find why “my church” is better.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
81 10/14/07 8:29 PM | Comment Link |Comment by: Mike
82 10/19/07 3:49 PM | Comment Link |Thanks for the book. I just finished reading it and I found it to be challenging. Honestly I was mad a few times, offended a couple of times, laughing frequently and rebuked often. I am no longer mad or offended, but I am still laughing and sensing rebuke.
This is not the typical book that independent Baptists would carry around their conventions, but as a Baptist pastor I believe that it should be read even if in the privacy and darkness of our own hideaways.
I am very concerned about how the world perceives us because that is their perception of God. The book has given me a lot to think about. It is a great reminder that our language in the church is quite foreign to those that we desire to reach with the message of Christ. I am challenged that what I am saying is being revealed in my actions. I am challenged all the more in my preaching to be responsive to the leading and wisdom of the Spirit of God. I am reminded of what Paul said (loose paraphrase)”I do not come in the wisdom of man (slick sales pitch) but in demonstration of the Spirit (not my game plan, but his). I came to declare Christ (both in word and action).”
Thanks to both of you for putting this project together.
By the way, I just saw your book in a book store and the Title, Red dust-jacket and the name Casper (Casper was my favorite cartoon) caught my attention. I am glad that I picked it up and plan to pass it around to friends.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
83 10/23/07 12:20 AM | Comment Link |thanks Mike
Comment by: Scott Lenger
84 10/24/07 4:22 PM | Comment Link |You know the evangelical church has hit a low point when it seeks the advice of an atheist for recommendations on how to make church better.
Comment by: Matt Casper
85 10/25/07 9:46 AM | Comment Link |Hi Scott,
Think of me not as an atheist but as an objective outsider. And I think they (evangelical leaders I have met with) see it as “reaching across the aisle” to learn about a point of view radically different from their own, always a good idea.
If you read the book, you’ll see that we’re not talking about “how to make church better,” but about whether or not church–as it’s practiced today in America–supports the teachings of the street preacher from 1st century Palestine. And that guy, well, he didn’t like church at all (the institution, anyway).
Do you see where I’m coming from? Let me know. Because many Christians I have met since writing the book have actually thanked me for helping them become better followers of Jesus. And no one has said, “Thanks for helping me make my church better.” Because that’s not what the book, this website, this mission is about.
Matt Casper
Comment by: Shawn Bashor
86 10/29/07 7:29 AM | Comment Link |To help prove your point Matt, thank you.
I gave the book to my friend Brant Hansen, he posted a blog about it and mentioned saving people 15 bucks or something. Your response was awesome about the profits of the book. Anyway my point is this, I bought four of the books and passed it along to friends, he happened to be the first to finish reading it and he is also the morning show host of a christian radio station here in south florida. He may have jokingly said he will save some people 15 bucks, but this morning he mentioned the book, gave it an awesome review, and encouraged 100,000 listeners to buy this book. There is some free advertising for you.
Comment by: Meg
87 11/7/07 11:47 PM | Comment Link |I hope you two start getting your 12 cents a book soon! I really enjoy each of your senses of humour!
Comment by: Matt Casper
88 11/8/07 10:23 AM | Comment Link |thanks Meg. It’s 12.5 cents a book, a.k.a., “mad money.” Once it starts rolling in, hey, chewing gum for everyone! On me!
Comment by: Helen Hoffmann
89 11/11/07 7:56 PM | Comment Link |I LOVE this book…only 2/3 finished but it’s tough to put down! As a life-time Christian, but disillusioned church-goer I have appreciated the perspective. I just read someone’s opinion that Jim and Casper should be sued; I laughed! What a kind friend Casper is being - ok, he was paid to do it, but still! It’s sort of like, when you’ve been cooking cabbage or broccoli all day, and a friend walks into your home and says, “What stinks??” and you say “…oh…can you still smell that?” Then they, being a FRIEND, say, “Oh ya, open the window!!!” You reply, “THANKS!! So Jim, and Casper, thanks so much.
Comment by: Pastor David
90 11/12/07 1:54 PM | Comment Link |Thanks for your work in putting this project together. I have posted a review of the book on my blog - would love if you stopped by.
Comment by: Rhonda Edjehu
91 11/17/07 11:41 PM | Comment Link |I am currently reading Jim and Casper Go To Church and will recommend this book to everyone! Our Christian walk is all about relationship and not techniques and ways to change people. This book vividly shows that moves people is open, honest dialogue. Meeting the needs of the hungry, lost and hopeless means feeding them, listening to them and sharing our hope. Amen. Good book!strong>
Comment by: Pastor David
92 11/20/07 10:05 AM | Comment Link |Jim,
Thank you for stopping by and offering your thoughtful response to my review of the book. In the interest of allowing my readers to have the benefit of your response, I have put it up as a seperate post. Thanks again for taking the time and thoughtfulness to respond.
Comment by: If an Athiest Went to Church… « The Journey Now Updates
93 11/22/07 10:22 AM | Comment Link |[...] Posted on November 22, 2007. Jim and Casper go to church. Jim drags an athiest friend to supposedly great churches. Is Casper affected? What does he love? Despise? Say, “Ho-hum…” when Jim is saying, “Wasn’t that fantastic!?” Fascinating ways emerge on how church is rated. [...]
Comment by: Nathalia
94 12/3/07 9:39 PM | Comment Link |I am a Minister who hates religion and the damage it has done to man’s relationship with his Creator, his Father and his fellowman. I can hardly bear to go to church anymore. There are so many judgmental, critical people putting on phony plastic smiles that it makes me w