REVIEW: Eastern OR Foursquare…
Hi Everyone,
My wife (Jen) and I made the 6 hour drive to La Grande, Oregon last weekend to visit her family. Always a nice, relaxing time, after we’ve finished the grueling drive.
On Sunday morning we attended Jen’s old Foursquare church in Eastern Oregon.
I found the experience worth recapping…
1. Overall Rating
‘6.’ What does that mean? Don’t worry, we’re implementing that new rating system here at ChurchRater with a grossly oversimplifying 0-10 rating system for an “overall vibe” or “experience” rank. A 6 means: “Just about what I’d expect from a church.”
2. First Impressions
Was the building easy to find? If you drove, was it hard to find parking? How about the exterior or interior signage – what would you do differently?
Building is easy to find. On the edge of town. Take a gravel road in to arrive. The exterior is pretty ugly… looks like a dressed up warehouse with a cross on the front, covered in white and baby blue paint. There is a manufactured home attached to the side of the building for extra space.
Did anyone approach you and speak to you before the service got underway? If so, how did you feel about that? Can you share their name(s)? Did you know them before your visit?
People are always very friendly… sometimes I little overly-eager (reminds me of my Assemblies of God home church).
3. General Observations
As you observe the people “doing their church thingâ€, what goes through your mind? Are you able to understand why they do what they do? Do they seem sincere?
I’m conflicted. I feel like this church is more genuine than a lot of charistmatic/pentecostal churches I’ve gone to… but that’s largely because of a few wonderful members I know very well. When I gaze the periphery, I’m less impressed. I see a lot of showmanship - a lot of people checking out other people (oops! I just caught myself!) Well, maybe I’ll get lucky and find they were all writing reviews for ChurchRater…
What do you think about the rituals (the liturgy or the program)?
Very casual. Not very planned, but not disorderly. It would be hard to use “liturgy” OR “ritual” here, though there are no-doubt Christiany things that I’m numb to (being on “the inside”)…
Check out the church program/bulletin. Is there anything in it you find confusing or offensive? If this were your “business†how would you improve this communication piece?
The bulletin gives very little information about the church. A few very brief lines about “what we believe,” but that tells me very little. Even less, if I was unchurched. I’d like to know purpose, vision, history… cheesy MS Word clipart abounds.
4. Music & Prayer
What did you think of the music? Did you enjoy any of it? Was it boring? Write down the feelings you had while watching or participating.
Normally they have a very talented worship leader. Today he was on vacation, so it was a little less refined. Very “rock concert” for a Sunday morning. Mostly the same 5 or 6 worship songs they play each Sunday.
What did you think of the prayers? As you listened to the prayers, what did you learn about the people, either good or bad? Did they “major in the majors†or get lost in the minors?
For the life of me, I can’t remember anything about the prayer right off hand… Not sure if that says something about me or about the church.
5. The Talk
Did the speaker or pastor seem likeable? Weird? Is she/he a person you’d enjoy having coffee with? If not, why not?
The speaker on this day was the Youth Pastor, who just returned from taking the kids on a missions trip to Mexico. He spoke a little bit about how great the trip was, and then allowed time for the high schoolers themselves to talk about it.
How about the quality of her/his talk: does the speaker need public speaking lessons or is she/he pretty good? Did she/he seem engaged/sincere/condescending?
Most of the kids said the exact same thing: “I went on this trip, not expecting anything, but God totally did an amazing work and it was the most incredible spiritual experience of my life, and now I think God is calling me to such-and-such ministry.” I know that sounds harsh, but my wife leaned over to me as they were talking and whispered: The same kids give the exact same testimonies every year. Is that because they know the adults expect it? Do they genuinely believe what they’re saying? Growing up in a similar Youth Group, I think I “re-dedicated” my life to Jesus 11 or 12 times. It’s sad that I was taught to feel compelled to do so, but it certainly wasn’t my intention to be misleading or tell people what they wanted to hear.
One boy confessed before the entire church that he had struggled with pornography. I found it a little bit inappropriate that now his female counterparts in the youth group are aware of his innermost struggles. I believe DEEPLY in transparency, but there are probably appropriate venues. His male peers and youth pastor should know about that. Not the girls who have their own sexual and gender burdens to bear. I think kids should be aware of what the other sex is dealing with at given points in life, but do they need to know who does what alone in front of the computer? My wife calls it “disrobing” eachother. We shouldn’t disrobe eachother, or allow someone to unwittingly disrobe themselves. More intimate circles of fellowship and accountability are made for that - not a Sunday morning congregation of 600.
Did the talk itself hold your attention? Was it enjoyable? Thought-provoking? Relevant? Credible? Did any part(s) of it particularly stand out to you in a positive or negative way?
It was certainly thought provoking, but not necessarily for the right reasons. Two of the teens who would be college freshmen next year said God “called them” to Master’s Commission (a church internship program) INSTEAD of college. I already think the church does a pathetic job of encouraging higher education, so I was sad to see these kids give up college aspirations (one had an incredible soccer scholarship at at a state university but will be giving it up).
6. After the Service/Meeting
Did anyone approach you and speak to you after the service ended? If so, how did you feel about that? Can you share their name(s)? Did you know them before visiting?
Yes, several friends we knew ran up to hug us after spotting us during the service. Always nice to see old friends and familiar face. Not being from the church myself though (originally, as I said, it was my wife’s church) I was acutely aware of those who didn’t know me looking directly at me, scanning my face, looking at my wife, then back to me, then away - without a “hi,” “hello” or “how do you do?” They don’t know me, so I’m not worth the time or effort.
Did you bring any adults or children with you to our service? If so, ask them about their experience. What did they tell you?
n/a
7. Concluding Thoughts
How was your experience at the church overall? Did you enjoy it? Would there be any point in you going there again?
Fine. A little underwhelming I guess. Not bad, just not great - not inspiring or challenging or invigorating or even very encouraging. I’m sure we’ll continue to go back and visit, though. There are people there whom we care for greatly… and who care for us.
If this church expects to attract people like yourself, what do you suggest they improve that you haven’t already mentioned?
Usually, when the pastor here preaches, the sermons are eithe (a) about how laughably stupid the world is (i.e. lots of jokes and the idiocy of non-Christians) or (b) call after call for re-dedication to the Lord because the world is getting so evil and bad. I can’t count how many times I’ve heard the phrase, “It’s time to step it up!” at this church. As a Christian, we’d better “step it up.” What are we, an 8th grade basketball team?
Do you have any other comments you want to share? What questions did we (ChurchRater.com) forget, that we should have asked?
Comment by: Helen
1 08/4/06 3:42 PM | Comment Link |Thanks Peter - that was a very interesting church review!
I think I’d agree that it’s best not to confess something of this nature in front of the whole church. Life is hard enough as it is without having the whole church know stuff about you that might freak some of them out.
I don’t quite understand the big distinction between telling male peers and telling female peers.
*sigh* yeah it sucks when people act like that.
Your wife is ‘n/a’?
Did you mean, “my wife is too busy to comment”?
Peter I appreciate your honesty.
Would you/could you have been this honest about your own church? How do you be honest and loyal at the same time?
Comment by: Marty
2 08/4/06 4:16 PM | Comment Link |Boy can I relate to all this from my Baptist upbringing. There is massive peer and family pressure in these things. I went to a Baptist camp with 250 kids and was the only one not to go forward to “accept Christ as my savior and be saved.” It was a defining moment in my life - for which I am grateful. It was a crash course in what integrity is all about.
Comment by: Peter Walker
3 08/4/06 4:54 PM | Comment Link |Helen said…
Helen, because at this point, they are 15 and 16 year olds. I think it’s good and healthy for young men and women (teens) to know what the other gender is dealing with at this point in their life. But as you said, it’s hard enough creating trustworthy community in the church, much less among hormonal teenagers who know deep dark secrets of the opposite sex. I guess from personal experience (and just my perspective) I think it’s better for young people that SPECIFICS of WHO are kept within one’s own gender… that’s just an easier line to designate as a youth pastor or leader. That might sound conservative (I sure hope not) but there is too much “unknown” and “inexperience” there… especially with CHURCHED kids. With adults, it’s another story, but I still think “outing” people (even oneself) before the entire congregation in this church culture is unhealthy. A small group or home church would be a different story too.
As for my “N/A” wife… I was considering the ENTIRE rating as “alongside my wife.” So there was no one else ADDITIONALLY ;)
And I think I would be this honest with my own church. I did the Albany First Assembly of God review awhile ago. The problem with that one was I had few SPECIFICS because I hadn’t been there in over a month (I was preaching elsewhere) and by now, my wife and I will probably not go back.
Comment by: Jen
4 08/4/06 5:51 PM | Comment Link |Just thought I’d throw in my two cents…as the n/a wife… ;)
I think Peter’s comments are pretty accurate regarding Faith Center…in fact, he may have been a bit too generous.
Two things I wanted to comment on that I’ve been thinking about in relation to church over the past week, and about Faith Center in particular…
1) My sister and her husband live in La Grande and recently had a baby. They’ve been on-again-off-again church goers since graduating high school. While Holly was pregnant they had started attending Faith Center quite reguarly as well as a young marrieds group that the associate pastor and his wife held in their home. I had assumed that they had continued to attend the church after the baby was born but they told me over the weekend that they had stopped going because Chris (husband) felt the people were inauthentic. It suprised me that he articulated his feelings in that way and I wondered how blatent that fakeness had to be for him to catch on to it. Maybe I’m not giving him enough credit…the other item that was an issue for them was that at this church, strangers kept coming up and asking to hold their baby. Is this a church thing? I don’t know that I’ve been in any other situation where strangers ask to hold someone else’s child..but I’ve noticed it alot at church. And recently I’ve noticed that interest in the parents seems to cease, or they are no longer seen as individuals once a baby enters the scene.
2) The women at this church look each other up and down. Peter noticed it first and then I picked up on it….I watched more than one woman (both women I knew and hadn’t seen in a few months and women I had never seen before) eye me from head to toe and then do the same to others. It was just like being at a sorority house. Or in the mall. I notice women do a lot of ‘measuring up’ in the mall.
When so many of my frustrations with the church have to do with the (mis)treatment of women…it definitely pushes me over the edge to find it cultivating this kind of interaction between women.
Comment by: Peter Walker
5 08/4/06 6:07 PM | Comment Link |My wife is so smart and insightful :)
Thanks for dropping by and commenting, sweetheart.
Comment by: Helen
6 08/4/06 6:14 PM | Comment Link |Thanks for sharing your comments, Jen.
Women in church do behave in weird ways sometimes. The women who comment on the Off The Map blogs had a funny conversation about that a little while back on the eBay atheist blog.
I’m sorry to hear your brother and his wife didn’t find the type of relationships that would have encouraged them to stay. I can see it adding insult to injury if people who don’t bother to care about you presume that it’s reasonable for them to ask to hold your baby.
Comment by: Helen
7 08/4/06 6:29 PM | Comment Link |I guess I’m thinking - does it really make that much difference to keep it within one’s gender? I mean, if teenage girls can’t be trusted, can other teenage boys?
I agree that - I see it as unhealthy because you can’t guarantee that everyone in a church will respond in healthy ways to a person confessing their sins - it depends too much on what sin it is and how stigmatized it is.
If people can find small groups safe enough that they can reveal quite personal struggles I think that’s wonderful.
Ok :)
I see that she has now shared some of her thoughts.
If you think you would, I respect that.
I’m just thinking about the situations I’ve been in and - I would want to say encouraging things about people I had relationships with. I wouldn’t want to say negative things. So I think it would be hard for me to say what I didn’t like along with what I did like.
Saying what I didn’t like would make me feel so mean. I don’t mean to pretend I’m never mean - I know I am, at times. But that’s generally because I’m upset or angry. Writing critical things about people I have relationships with when I’m not upset or angry…that would be hard.
Comment by: Helen
8 08/4/06 6:30 PM | Comment Link |Peter wrote:
She sure is!
She’s not even close to being an ‘n/a’, Peter ;)
Comment by: Peter Walker
9 08/4/06 6:41 PM | Comment Link |Jen will probably affirm that I take a little TOO much joy in being the contrarian or “provocateur.”
Comment by: Jim
10 08/5/06 1:24 PM | Comment Link |Jen This was my favorite comment from your post - pertaining to your brother in law ( I hope he isn’t reading this)
Your humor and insight provide us a view of how your mind works. I spontaneously laughed out loud when I came across that line
Thanks for blogging with us
Comment by: Jeremy
11 09/28/06 3:58 PM | Comment Link |Hey Peter this is Jeremy, the youth pastor at La Grande Faith Center. I understand that my personal feelings are fully wrapped into this “rating” and I can give way to the notion that had I read another review about another church I may not have thought twice (although I am not convinced of that). Now setting aside how I feel, I have a couple of questions about the motive and intention of “rating” churches. What exactly is the point? A church being evaluated by Biblical standards and precepts is an absolute must, but I am honestly intrigued about this “rating system”. What is the constructive purpose of “rating” individual churches by “man’s standard” and posting it on a website? Not saying that some of the questions being asked are not relevant, however, what is the primary heart behind this faculty? It is unarguable to say, “There is no such thing as a perfect church,” and I quote this not as an excuse for my own home church, but as a point of communication. The stylistic differences from church to church spreads a broad spectrum, but focusing on the different styles of a church is kind of like “majoring in the minors”, would you agree? It is a given that the theological foundation and leadership will set the trend and focus of any church and I wouldn’t say theology and leadership is a minor issue, but what should be at the forefront? Jesus Christ! I guess I just don’t see Jesus being glorified in this church rating thing. And I am not so naive to think I am altruistic in my every motive for life, but I am willing to say, “Lord, search me and know me.” I guess all I am asking is that you would do the same in regards to the way you are “rating churches.”
Comment by: Peter Walker
12 09/28/06 8:10 PM | Comment Link |Comment by: Howard
13 10/23/07 12:46 PM | Comment Link |I find it somewhat disturbing that good Christian people feel such a need to rate everything. To pit one against another and to show the negative of even a church is somewhat distasteful to me.
I’m curious what scripture shows this as proper behavior. To set yourselves up as the definitive keeper of a rating system that makes arbitrary judgment as to the motives and intent behind parishioners is nothing if not sinful.
These perceptions may be based on past experiences and may have some validity but I have to ask why one would seek to make an opinionated statement that could only prove to breed discord among fellow Christians.
You surely must know that your critiques of a church would hurt those that truly believe in their churches calling. Yet you post it in the name of RATING.
No I don’t deny that you can find fault in a church. They are ran by and occupied by humans. Yes you can say that in your opinion one is better than another but isn’t that the Lords place? Isn’t he the one that will ultimately hold the leadership and all those in it to task.
It appears there was a lot of measuring up on both sides of the isle. I think it’s for God to judge all these hearts and not for speculative ratings. How do we know their heart? Experience gives us some insight but often it can cause rash assumptions and not lend itself to true knowledge.
And to critique the physical house that the Lords people meet in is somewhat in poor taste. I wonder how you might have critiqued the Lord Jesus Christ choice of venues from which to teach. Or The disciples. “For wherever two or more of you are gathered, there I will be also” This scripture doesn’t put any kind of requirement for the exterior to be impressive.
I think if you choose to judge churches and the people within them then you need to be ready to be judged in the same manner. If it’s cold without consideration for those that attend and love this church then you need to ask if that’s the way you wish to be judged. Yes rating a church and talking about the apparent motivations, sincerity and hearts of those inside is judgment.
Search your hearts.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
14 10/24/07 3:45 PM | Comment Link |We got this idea from listening to Christians talk about church over coffee every week
Comment by: Nicole
15 06/5/08 9:53 PM | Comment Link |I, like Jeremy, call Faith Center my home church. I have attended this church since I was five, and I am now 29, married, and have two children. And I can say that the church, and it’s many members, have stood by me through thick and thin, through all of my personal struggles as a young Christian woman questioning my beliefs, trying to define my own relationship with God. They have held me up and been there for me when I didn’t have the strength to carry on. Those are the things that matter, not the “ugly” exterior that has been neglected because we would rather spend tithes on outreach to youth than paint for the building. I find it sad and dis-heartening that you would judge the church and their many amazing members based on one interaction. And I am sorry that Chris and Holly, who once called Faith Center their home church, have left and I would hope that they would give our church a second chance…